My point about Nirvana was that I think it could be useful to shift the framework of your thinking away from the "ultimate goal" and towards the goal of "how can I find peace in the present moment" You've said before that it is difficult for you to not follow something to its logical conclusion, but Buddhism is not a philosophy it is a practice. A cello player might hold in mind their aspiration to play like Yo-Yo Ma but they need to learn a lot before they can really start to dive into his work! Similarly, it can be useful to hold the idea of enlightenment in mind but we need a lot of first-hand experience before we can truly grasp the meaning of Nirvana.
You have it exactly right when you ask whether the goal should be to mediate and reign in emotions! My question to you is how can you tell if something causes more good than harm? In Buddhism there are three general categories of feeling. There are feelings that are unpleasant, feelings that are neutral, and feelings that are pleasant. But these feelings are always interconnected you cannot have one without the others! Think about when you have a toothache, it is a cause of suffering. If you can go to the dentist and have it fixed that is a cause of joy but it fades fast. How often do you stop and think about your teeth when they are not hurting? Everyday our teeth do so much for us but we hardly notice. Neutral feelings are often very subtle and overlooked even if they are the cause of much joy in our lives! The practice of mindfulness helps us connect with these feelings and transform them into joy and peace. Now think of a child who is eating some candy, it is a pleasant experience but often they will eat too much and get sick which is unpleasant. If we learn to practice mindfully we can eat a piece of candy, and recognizing the the pleasant feeling is temporary, fully enjoy that piece! The neutral feeling here could be something like eating plain rice. How often have you had rice and really tasted the full flavor of the rice alone? Next time you eat rice, try and eat just a mouthful and really chew it for a while. As our teeth and saliva break the rice down the subtle flavor evolves and it can be quite pleasant!
Something else that I've noticed is that you seem to hold in you the idea that Buddhism teaches us to accept feelings/experiences and do nothing and that it is simultaneously too much effort. The Buddha taught ways to take our experiences/feelings and transform them so that we do not suffer from them. On the outside this may look like nothing but there is a very real transformation that we can create and through this transformation we can better decide how to act.
One of the keys to successfully being able to practice meditation is to not be too hard on ourselves! We aren't monks so we don't need to renounce all worldly pleasures and modern life throws a million challenges at us daily. You don't have to strive for perfection. The Buddha's teachings are like following the north star. The goal is to travel north not to reach the star! Something that a teacher of mine once said was that we should try and hold ourselves with more compassion. If you think about meditation during the day notice that aspiration and try to smile to yourself. If you notice that you think about it a lot during the week try to stop and take a single mindful breath, really feel the in breath and the out breath. Don't worry if you only remember to do it 1/10 times, if you do it 1/10 times consistently enough then it will transform into 2/10 then 5/10 then 10/10! Just like with weight training we need to start with what we are able to do and slowly work our way up. You may also like to try sitting meditation or walking meditation. Even if it is just for 5 minutes a week if you really practice I know that you will start to see some benefits!
Sorry for jumping in on another (good) conversation, but I saw that you’ve made a few posts on the topic, and was interested in this theme of following an idea or framework of ideas to their “logical conclusion” of some anticipated, undesirable extreme. I can seriously relate to the need to beat myself up out of some sort of perceived failure to live my life “properly”, in part reinforced by the dichotomy of “being a productive member of society” and “being useless” that’s imposed on pretty much all of us from birth.
For myself, a meditation practice has been helpful for catching myself when I fall into these thought patterns. When I notice myself feeling frustrated with myself for a lack of progress, or distress over some perception that I could be making much better use of my time than smoking weed and playing a video game, it’s been a lot easier for me to defuse that feeling before going into a mental tailspin. These concepts of “what I should be” are illusory and inherently unattainable (like the idea of being perfectly mindful all the time, when mindfulness itself is something that comes and goes, as with everything else.) And even if that anxiety might still arise, it’s been easier not to identify myself with it to the point of self-perpetuating distress.
Apologies if that didn’t make sense/doesn’t resonate lmao, as a full disclosure I am going through some med withdrawal so “brain machine broke”, but let me know if I can clarify anything. As full disclosure I’m one of those “perennialists” (i.e. see a lot of these spiritual practices sharing a broader metaphysical origin and goal) and think people should follow whatever path most resonates for them on every level down to aesthetic - but I’m wondering if your issue lies not with Buddhism itself, but potentially some other thought-pattern that this specific idea of Buddhism’s “conclusion” tends to evoke.
No worries comrade I didn't see it as lashing out! I also want to make it clear that I'm not trying to convert you or anything haha you just seem genuinely curious about the practice and I wanted to try and clarify a few points/share some of my own experiences. If you think that this is something that you want to pursue more I'd highly recommend trying to find a meditation center near you. They are usually run by lay practitioners and the dharma talks should be free. Learning from more experienced people can help you overcome some of the common roadblocks that we all face and even if you don't really like it you might make a new friend. I met my partner of 2 years at a meditation center and she has been the best thing to happen in my life!
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My point about Nirvana was that I think it could be useful to shift the framework of your thinking away from the "ultimate goal" and towards the goal of "how can I find peace in the present moment" You've said before that it is difficult for you to not follow something to its logical conclusion, but Buddhism is not a philosophy it is a practice. A cello player might hold in mind their aspiration to play like Yo-Yo Ma but they need to learn a lot before they can really start to dive into his work! Similarly, it can be useful to hold the idea of enlightenment in mind but we need a lot of first-hand experience before we can truly grasp the meaning of Nirvana.
You have it exactly right when you ask whether the goal should be to mediate and reign in emotions! My question to you is how can you tell if something causes more good than harm? In Buddhism there are three general categories of feeling. There are feelings that are unpleasant, feelings that are neutral, and feelings that are pleasant. But these feelings are always interconnected you cannot have one without the others! Think about when you have a toothache, it is a cause of suffering. If you can go to the dentist and have it fixed that is a cause of joy but it fades fast. How often do you stop and think about your teeth when they are not hurting? Everyday our teeth do so much for us but we hardly notice. Neutral feelings are often very subtle and overlooked even if they are the cause of much joy in our lives! The practice of mindfulness helps us connect with these feelings and transform them into joy and peace. Now think of a child who is eating some candy, it is a pleasant experience but often they will eat too much and get sick which is unpleasant. If we learn to practice mindfully we can eat a piece of candy, and recognizing the the pleasant feeling is temporary, fully enjoy that piece! The neutral feeling here could be something like eating plain rice. How often have you had rice and really tasted the full flavor of the rice alone? Next time you eat rice, try and eat just a mouthful and really chew it for a while. As our teeth and saliva break the rice down the subtle flavor evolves and it can be quite pleasant!
Something else that I've noticed is that you seem to hold in you the idea that Buddhism teaches us to accept feelings/experiences and do nothing and that it is simultaneously too much effort. The Buddha taught ways to take our experiences/feelings and transform them so that we do not suffer from them. On the outside this may look like nothing but there is a very real transformation that we can create and through this transformation we can better decide how to act.
One of the keys to successfully being able to practice meditation is to not be too hard on ourselves! We aren't monks so we don't need to renounce all worldly pleasures and modern life throws a million challenges at us daily. You don't have to strive for perfection. The Buddha's teachings are like following the north star. The goal is to travel north not to reach the star! Something that a teacher of mine once said was that we should try and hold ourselves with more compassion. If you think about meditation during the day notice that aspiration and try to smile to yourself. If you notice that you think about it a lot during the week try to stop and take a single mindful breath, really feel the in breath and the out breath. Don't worry if you only remember to do it 1/10 times, if you do it 1/10 times consistently enough then it will transform into 2/10 then 5/10 then 10/10! Just like with weight training we need to start with what we are able to do and slowly work our way up. You may also like to try sitting meditation or walking meditation. Even if it is just for 5 minutes a week if you really practice I know that you will start to see some benefits!
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Sorry for jumping in on another (good) conversation, but I saw that you’ve made a few posts on the topic, and was interested in this theme of following an idea or framework of ideas to their “logical conclusion” of some anticipated, undesirable extreme. I can seriously relate to the need to beat myself up out of some sort of perceived failure to live my life “properly”, in part reinforced by the dichotomy of “being a productive member of society” and “being useless” that’s imposed on pretty much all of us from birth.
For myself, a meditation practice has been helpful for catching myself when I fall into these thought patterns. When I notice myself feeling frustrated with myself for a lack of progress, or distress over some perception that I could be making much better use of my time than smoking weed and playing a video game, it’s been a lot easier for me to defuse that feeling before going into a mental tailspin. These concepts of “what I should be” are illusory and inherently unattainable (like the idea of being perfectly mindful all the time, when mindfulness itself is something that comes and goes, as with everything else.) And even if that anxiety might still arise, it’s been easier not to identify myself with it to the point of self-perpetuating distress.
Apologies if that didn’t make sense/doesn’t resonate lmao, as a full disclosure I am going through some med withdrawal so “brain machine broke”, but let me know if I can clarify anything. As full disclosure I’m one of those “perennialists” (i.e. see a lot of these spiritual practices sharing a broader metaphysical origin and goal) and think people should follow whatever path most resonates for them on every level down to aesthetic - but I’m wondering if your issue lies not with Buddhism itself, but potentially some other thought-pattern that this specific idea of Buddhism’s “conclusion” tends to evoke.
No worries comrade I didn't see it as lashing out! I also want to make it clear that I'm not trying to convert you or anything haha you just seem genuinely curious about the practice and I wanted to try and clarify a few points/share some of my own experiences. If you think that this is something that you want to pursue more I'd highly recommend trying to find a meditation center near you. They are usually run by lay practitioners and the dharma talks should be free. Learning from more experienced people can help you overcome some of the common roadblocks that we all face and even if you don't really like it you might make a new friend. I met my partner of 2 years at a meditation center and she has been the best thing to happen in my life!