I've played the first TLoU like 4 times (?) and the second just once (so far, I'll play again some day ™️)

I honestly don't remember Joel being like overtly awful, but maybe I missed or forgot a bunch of shit.

(Spoiler warning? The games are old-ish at this point, but, whatever. Don't read if you don't like spoilers)

Joel shoots the doctor (Abby's dad(if I remembered her name correctly)) who we can assume was legitimately trying to find a vaccine or cure, I guess?

I always took that as morally ambiguous if that made Joel "bad" or not. He shot a doctor who was going to kill a girl that he had essentially adopted and bonded with, so in that way, he's defending his friend/adopted daughter. On the other hand, he essentially doomed humanity to extinction or at least forever having to live with the scourge of the fungus-virus whatever the fuck thing. Incredibly selfish, but one of those "hmm, what would I do?" things that I don't anyone can truly answer. It's an impossible choice. When you're shooting all those militia guys and medical staff, it's like "oh shit, these are just doctors and nurses and their defenders! But also, they wanted to kill his daughter [to save humanity potentially]."

That mixed feeling makes you fully empathize and understand why Abby had a blood feud with Joel and wasn't satisfied with anything short of his death. Even if you also realize that her actions are irrational and purely revenge based since nothing will undo the death of her father and the hopeless situation the world is left in without his expertise + the patient who might hold the answer.

This of course fuels Ellie to hold a blood feud against Abby and her friends which leads to the deaths of all Abby's friends, etc. and I guess the cycle is supposed to be ended at the end end? I honestly forget the ending and aren't there multiple endings anyway? Whatever.

As far as Joel goes, I don't know that chuds love him, but if they do, it's probably for all the reasons one would imagine. [from his perspective] he's a good man in a fallen world. He was wronged by his government (chud checkmark) who caused the death of his young, beloved daughter. He was a single dad (?) I think. A Texan. A good-ol boy with a truck and guns on standby for the apocalypse which he instantly acclimated to. He failed to save his first daughter, so he became gruff, cynical, and uncaring. Then he meets Ellie who has a personality similar to his daughter and clearly he replaces her, in a way, with Ellie. Then the "terrorists" Fireflies want to end Ellie's life. He couldn't save his first daughter, but he does inhuman things in the pursuit of saving his new daughter. But he never tells her. The stoic, self-sacrificing ideal of a man who will give his life and soul to protect those around him from death or the emotional consequences of "what it takes" to survive. Including murdering a doctor, sparking a blood feud cycle of violence.

He appeals to basically every single "traditional" value that men are told, through stories like this one!, that they are supposed to hold. Protect your family, be prepared for anything, bare the burden of pain and suffer when you must to spare those you love.

I suppose they miss the consequences of that mindset. The cycles of violence, the dehumanization of others, etc.

This is purely from memory, apologies for any name or story mistakes.