finally xi has said something good about palestine
Death to America
if you're equating China and "Israel", please educate yourself
Brits are truly the scum of the earth. That doctoring went through an entire approval process where not a single person questioned it.
Brits are truly the scum of the earth.
You could have just left it at that
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Funny, how only the International Community™ are the only ones who condemn China about Xinjiang while Muslim countries support China. If China were really genociding Muslims, wouldn't Muslim countries care a bit more about what's going on?
Obviously China bought all those muslims! Brown people can not form their own opinions!11111
I still don't get it (forgive me for being dense)
- US supports the genocide of Palestine
- China supports the genocide of Uighurs
Is this really not a case of the Pot calling the kettle black?
I feel like I'm being baited into posting links, so I won't - but on duckduckduckgo schreib "!w Xianjiang Int* ca*ps"
Wikipedia tends to be a good source of information.
Wikipedia tends to be a good source of information.
I've found one part of the problem
It's not about baiting to post a link, it's about not being able to prove a negative.You made an (outrageous) claim and you need to back it up with a source. (Most of us actually tried to find a credible source on this topic but couldn't find one. It always boils down to a Zenz or ASPI or another defense Industry sponsored piece)
No, the onus is on you because my views on this particular topic happens to be inline with the status quo who already provide a large body of primary sources (wikipedia, BBC, guardian, the list goes on). It is you that is challenging this status quo, and so by the scientific method, it is you who must provide the evidence to change the prevailing model.
First of all, that's not how the "scientific method" works. If you make a claim or hypothesis, you must provide sufficient evidence to prove it. You have not. The "scientific method" is definitely not "status quo says this so it is true", even if the status quo was on your side (it is not). It is not a surprise that your understanding of the world is so myopic if this is the level of discourse you bring here.
Secondly, you have not posited any proper claim. You have merely implied it. If you want to have some weird debate here, then at least abide by the rules of proper debates and bring forth a properly phrased claim. If your claim is that "genocide is happening in Xinjaing", then that can be dismissed, as no credible source is still parroting that claim - it was claimed without evidence by Zenz (a far right Christian lunatic who thinks god sent him on a mission to destroy China) and amplified by American NGOs like UHRP and WUC, which are CIA-funded organizations. By your own debate rules, a claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There can be other claims about Xinjiang that we would happily discuss with you, but seeing as you clearly do not respect discussion rules, it is clear that you participate in bad faith.
If you choose to present evidence to support the extraordinary claims of "genocide" then sure, we can engage. But as it stands, the genocide against Palestine is continuously filmed, and you may see kids be blown up in videos out of Gaza. There are records of close to 80 years of genocidal rhetoric from the Israeli government calling Palestinians animals, and vowing to erase them, calling to nuke them, and ordering the mass murder of them - there is intent.
To date, there has not been a single credible claim of genocide against Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Not only that, but there is no record of even the intent to genocide them by China. The laughable claim that they hate Muslims is easily countered by the fact that Uyghurs enjoy privileged status that follows from the government's affirmative action policies towards them, and that Hui Muslims are untouched even by the claims of your own American propaganda. So please, show us the evidence and videos of people killed by China, or I challenge you to even show a single clip of China's intent to genocide, and we may talk.
I think you've strongly erred here. The prevailing scientific model in any field is determined by a majority consensus of scientists who find the particular evidence compelling enough to form an authority on the matter. Anyone who wishes to change this prevailing model must have enough evidence. The onus, once again, is on those who wish to change the status quo.
As for Palestine, it has many willing neighbours to record the atrocities happening there, and tiny borders to prevent them from doing so. China has the opposite.
That is not the scientific method, a simple Google search will show you its actual meaning. If you are implying that scientists have studied.... the "uyghur genocide"?? I don't even know what you are trying to imply. It's just laughable. No scientist has studied the XUAR to claim there is a genocide. No amount of evidence will suffice if you haven't formed your opinions logically. You do not know what your own claims are (is it that scientists say there's an Uyghur genocide?), and you do not have a clear vision of how someone is expected to challenge you because of it. Additionally, you have not presented a single shred of evidence, and it is clear you engage in bad faith and do not care to get to the truth of the matter so I fully expect you to bury your head in the sand - I will not reply further.
I will present evidence suggesting the absence of such a program, but naturally because you have not presented evidence for the existence of it, the claim that "China is genociding Uyghurs" is unfalsifiable. It is like claiming God exists - you don't care to prove it, and no one can disprove it.
My sources:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:
- Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang.
Even the US state department walks back its claim that there is a genocide. Instead, from their rhetoric and in the absence of even the smallest shred of evidence it is clear that their internal logic in claiming that there was a genocide (or even forced labour or ethnic cleansing) is based entirely on their political aims.
The US also prevented the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights from visiting China for more than 3.5 years, while China has been inviting them since 2018. This is a classic US tactic that it has employed since the founding of the UN (ever since the 1948 with the Korean elections).
I don't think you understand what a primary source is... https://apus.libanswers.com/faq/2299 => Wikipedia is (like all encyclopedias) a tertiary source
Yeah, sad that it just happens to be a fantastic provider of primary sources
It can be, most information on wikipedia is good enough for most things. Political issues are sadly more sensitive to influence or bias, especially on a public (mainly english) encyclopedia like wikipedia.
The way citations are picked and presented can have bias, the selection of sources used for wikipedia articles can have bias, and the sources themselves can have bias...
-> Wikipedia is indeed an easy way to find a lot of primary and secondary sources, but that does not mean that these sources are always good or credible.
In context of the above, using wikipedia as a valid base for your political beliefs is, in my opinion, a bit problematic. (not saying that you do that btw, just that it is)
You are mistaking how burden of proof actually works for how cultural norms are enforced. If I assert that gravity is real, the burden of proof is still on me for making a positive claim, no matter how extremely common of a claim it is. Incidentally, it is quite easy to demonstrate by a wide range of methods. If I assert that the Holocaust is real, the burden of proof is still on me, and again it is very easy to prove because it had extensive documentation (though Nazis did also destroy a lot of the documents).
If I assert a Uighur genocide, I would need to prove it, but here I would struggle since there is very, very little documentation supporting g the claim.
my views on this particular topic happens to be inline with the status quo
Aka the hegemon which is the US
Seeing your approach to sources/science I can tell why you hold your skewed view of china. Since I can't prove an negative, I'll give you the Chinese perspective that gives a proper context:
https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
The onus is now on you to prove that you don't fuck trashcans. After all, my feeling that you do it in line with the status quo here.
my views on this particular topic happens to be inline with the status quo who already provide a large body of primary sources "You have to prove me wrong because I agree with the governments of occidental nations who only represent 1/8th the population of the world." Fuck off with your white supremacist "gardener" world view.
Wikipedia tends to be a good source of information.
It is a decidedly bad source of information on enemies of the State Department.
Also, just as an ESL thing, it looks like you slipped back into German there with "schreib" instead of "write" or "type"
Strange cause I don't see any evidence of a genocide...kinda hard to hide in this day and age of technology. Or are you just repeating what the Western media says?
kinda hard to hide in this day and age of technology.
This is the bit that confuses me. Before October people could say that they've weighed up the evidence and you can at least logically see how they get to 'genocide' based on the evidence they've deemed 'credible'.
But now? Now there's a real genocide happening right in front of us. We're seeing what a real genocide looks like, and we're seeing how hard it is to hide. How the fuck are there people who still think there's one happening in Xinjiang?
I used to think that the one sliver of silver lining that was coming out of Palestine was that Western Governments and Private Media had destroyed their credibility by blatantly backing Israel and spinning the coverage. But nope. The West is hopeless with Sinophobia: either unaware of how bad they have it, or pretending they don't.
Unfortunately there are members of the Palestinian diaspora I know claiming that Xinjiang is part of the globalized war on Muslims. I'm choosing to not engage with them on this out of respect for the moment, but at some point its gonna need to be addressed how they are parroting propaganda from the very same mouthpieces that are manufacturing consent for their own genocide happening right now in front of us.
I've also seen this, it's very unfortunate. It really goes to show the power of US propaganda. Their media monopoly is one of their last exports tho, and eventually it will fade, just takes time.
Well yes, but also a colleague of mine is from there. He had to fight tooth and nail to get his family out and he told be often of the horrors faced by his people.
I also dated a Beijing girl for a year and she was very much of the opinion that nothing was wrong, but she was incredibly dense about a lot of things to the point that I no lover trusted her opinion.
If there's a genocide going on you can actually provide numbers like population loss and displacement. It would be EXTREMELY HARD to cover all of this up. Look at Israel, where an actual genocide is taking place. You're telling me that China is doing the same thing and not only does no one know about it but Muslim leaders that actually visited Xinjiang approved of China's actions, all of those people are wrong? Sounds like your "colleague" is a liar.
I also dated a Beijing girl for a year and she was very much of the opinion that nothing was wrong, but she was incredibly dense about a lot of things to the point that I no lover trusted her opinion.
That's cause nothing was wrong, and you're a chauvinist. Why is her opinion any less valuable than your colleague's? She fucking lives there dude
Dense. She treated people she barely knew like dirt, the entire time I holidayed with her in China she would look down on the culture of the different towns as if Beijing was the holy grail, and she would constantly competitively insert herself into someone else's conversation. I loved her, because she could be incredibly sweet, but she was also capable of being incredibly mean. But fine, that makes me a chauvanist.
Nah that doesn't make you a chauvinist but it does mean you're using the word dense wrong especially if the above behaviors are your examples for it. Anyway, ignore my low effort cheap shot. It's not really worth responding to other people will actually engage with you on the subject.
As hominem aside, I keep trying in the hopes that something materialises. I'm always happy to persuaded I'm wrong on a topic, but I'm not seeing the silver bullet here
Well I think you should frame the issue the other way. What's the silver bullet convincing you of genocide? An off hand testimony and western news? I've seen video evidence and photos of Palestinian people being bombed and murdered as well as specific evidence showing how Israel is moving them off their land. Crimes on a scale that can't be hidden.
That's what's being claimed about Xinjiang. What Israel is doing to Palestine is what they claim is happening to uigurs. Regardless of prejudice or repression people may be facing there, I'm not convinced they are, there certainly isn't a genocide. If the Western line is that there is one, they better have some damn credible evidence, which, as far as I can tell, they don't.
That's fair. I saw this video[0] and it was covered by DW, BBC, Telegraph, Aljazeera, and Turkish media that I consider to be relatively independent from one another. The counter evidence that I see is only what is the official line from Beijing.
You question Western news as an unreliable source, and that it sometimes indeed is. The Guardian had its offices raided by police a few years back, and since then even it toes close to what the government says. But these media outlets are owned by rich people, who often don't see completely eye-to-eye on a certain topic, and by looking at the differences in these narratives on the same topic you can build a bigger picture.
Chinese media is completely state controlled. There is none of this deviation in narrative, it is literally parrot talk, so it is in my opinion that its much less trustworthy than a western source.
As for Palestine, I don't think anyone buys what Israel and the US say on the matter.
0: https://inv.vern.cc/watch?time_continue=707&v=NGDr38eU62U
Finally a claim and a source. I recommend you rewatch that BBC video and try to separate the claims from the evidence. The BBC has this great technique where they mix claims backed by some evidence (which might not be good) with a bunch of claims from interviewees backed only by sounding authoritative. You'll probably notice the "evidence" provided is basically:
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A man claims he was arrested.
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The main thing, the (racistly named) China Cables, and a bunch of reactions to those documents. You can check the documents themselves here, though you have to weigh the possibility of them being forged or the translation being doctored. Though you'll notice that even this dubious document does not describe anything that looks like a genocide.
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A woman says she got arrested.
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Another woman saying her husband got arrested.
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Yet another claims that she was forced to teach there.
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That's it really.
Now, if you pay attention you'll notice the BBC horribly obfuscates their sources, but reading the main document (which they claim to be a concentration camp manual), it reads like a very heavy-handed manual for what they're actually advertised as: vocational training and de-radicalising centres.
Then later on they say a man was arrested for using WhatsApp, and show some hacker aesthetics version of bulletin 20, but that one describes people who use 快呀 (kuaiya) software (apparently a file sharing app) to spread violent material.
After that, they do the same thing with bulletin 2, framing the notion that people with passports who can't be ruled out as terrorists needing security checks as a bad thing. Specially considering some of the countries listed have a history of financing terrorist groups abroad. Note that none of the claims by the previous interviewees (cameras checking even which doors you use) are in this source.
Skipping over all the interviewees again they cite the telegram to say that inmates have to stay at least 1 years and there are some conditions for leaving, such as good scores and less terrorist behaviours. If you ignore the sad music, sounds like a pretty normal thing for a de-radicalisation centre. Then they randomly add that "after that students may have to do forced labour" but cite something else entirely that says that they should be aided and monitored for one year. Weird.
Then they interview the "Washington-based Uyghur group guy" lol. That's all, really, but with a lot of fancy music and cinematography. I purposefully ignored the interviewees because each of them would be a can of worms that only pad for time in this one, but you can look them up too.
So to sum it up, their brand new evidence is a purposefully misinterpreted set of leaked documents, which may or may not be real, and which support the narrative of genocide less than it does the official one of de-radicalisation centres. In fact notice that the BBC guy doesn't use the word "genocide" once, but launders his argument through the interviewees. Since you mentioned the scientific method, consider the null hypothesis as China's official narrative being true and the genocide narrative being your hypothesis. This does not make the genocide hypothesis more likely.
See how much easier it is to examine claims when you provide them clearly and with sources? I may sound snarky but I'm actually glad you did, since this documentary (back when it was hosted on BBC proper, don't know what happened there) was when I started seriously questioning the mainstream narrative.
Now as a sidenote, note some absences. You have complained about impartiality in this thread, but throughout this whole documentary the Beeb guy does not interview a single Chinese official in good faith, only that shouting interruption with the diplomat. Every single interviewee is of the same position, there aren't even people from the other Muslim countries who have visited and disagree. Are we supposed to believe that this is impartial just because they bring a lot of people but with the same opinions?
Besides that there is no official number cited from their sources. The guy shouts at the diplomat "hundreds of thousands" but such a number never pops up in the documents. At another point somebody else says "a million" which famously comes from Adrian Zenz.
Also I think it's cute one of the biggest point in the main document back in 2017 was "prevent epidemics." And point 13 is explicitly saying inmates should be able to contact family to "keep family at the ease" and "make students feel safe." Horrifying.
And lastly, have this uncited court document that spells CPC wrong and lists as smoking gun a guy being arrested for actual clear-cut religious intolerance. "All people who do not pray are Han Chinese kafirs."
This was fun.
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Man that's the BBC lol
And I think you're being a little too trusting of bourgeois media. Lest we forget the Iraq war and lessons we were supposed to learn from that.
Like I said, again, I'm not seeing bodies. I'm not seeing death squads. I'm not seeing violence fighting back. If there was Islamic terrorism in the region prior to any of China's programs why would the violence from them decrease after they started rounding people up? Why would the population of Uighers increase over the past years that a supposed "genocide" is going on.
Why aren't Chinese people as openly fascistic towards these minorities? I have many friends from China and none of them speak or act like fascists when it comes to minorities of all types in China. I don't think you can have a genocide and hide it, without a population that vehemently supports it. This further then raised the question of why would fascists who love murder try and hide? They'd be proud like the Nazis.
I think additionally you'll see this reflected on the way the "genocide" in Xinjiang is treated like a story of the week. It's not a fun short little thing that can be completed in a Few weeks, months or even years. It takes time, or millions of people being mobilized. Which is evidently not something we're seeing there.
Sometimes you can read through the cracks, others times you can't. Gleaning reliable information from what appears to be a lie isn't possible ya know?
Have you given this any more thought? Have you come to a different conclusion? Did you feel albigu's comments were lacking in some way?
A little bit. I do appreciate your last long comment. I'm still trying to reconcile what I've read here with what I've heard from my colleague who fought to get his family out of the region. I guess "genocide" was definitely too strong. I'm now leaning more towards "mass forced re-education". Baby steps here.
So in summary: you trust what the man has to say and don't trust what the woman has to say.
I also dated a Beijing girl for a year and she was very much of the opinion that nothing was wrong, but she was incredibly dense about a lot of things to the point that I no lover trusted her opinion.
"I dated a girl from China who I don't respect so the opposite of what she says must be true" is not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is.
Obviously not, but her opinion on all topics parroted the party line so often, so patriotically, that I assume that anyone who repeats the state media in any country is likely being fed lies.
Except you. You are the special boy who's immune to propaganda.
Dude, I am asking for information. I am more that happy to update my beliefs, I just need one convincing source. If you have nothing to offer but abuse, then don't worry about it.
"Bro, I'm willing to be convinced that the so-called Holocaust happened, I just need one convincing source. If you're just going to call me a Holocaust Denier then don't worry about it.
Also, I dated a Jew once and she was very dense so I think Auschwitz didn't happen."
I mean...you sure didn't need any sources to update your beliefs to China commiting genocide against Uyghurs, since...there aren't any in existence.
Are people you keep bugging supposed to prove that an unsubstantiated claim is unsubstantiated? Sure seems like low effort trolling to me. Especially after this gem. My favourite. The "DPRK is a closed country, so we should believe any old bullshit" "argument", but about China for a change. Distinct lack of political discussions in your history before this episode points to you living under a bridge too, if you catch my drift...
Bless comrades' hearts for writing up all those sheets. Someone actually being curious in good faith will get use out of them.
Are you not parroting the Western party line? Idk, I think this is a situation of glass houses and stones wrt your criticism of your ex.
Remember also that a big aspect of colonizer guilt, is accusing your enemies of that which you are guilty of (the west accusing China of being anti-muslim, accusing the USSR of anti-semitism, etc) This is why average USonians can't accept the idea that other countries haven't committed genocide, and are not as evil as theirs is, and default to a "all countries bad".
Nope. Muslim countries are telling you that a genocide isn't happening. So why do you believe Adrian Zenz (the source of these claims, a white supremacist christian evangelical), and the western countries who have been bombing Muslim countries for decades, and the US who is in the middle of a trade war with China?
Could I get a mirror of this? Reddit media links are totally broken for me and always redirect to this one post
A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on Teddit and Libreddit, which are Reddit frontends that protect your privacy.
That would be a great point, except that the official line from both Aljazeera and TRT say otherwise:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/uighurs-timeline
https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/china-s-unease-over-t%C3%BCrkiye-s-support-for-uighurs-has-hurt-ties-ankara-63990
An absolute bombshell of an article on Xinjiang from Neue Zürcher Zeitung
First of all the article is written by probably the 2 most highly respected German sinologists: Thomas Heberer, a senior professor of Chinese politics and society at the University of Duisburg-Essen and Helwig Schmidt-Glintzer, a senior professor of Chinese studies and the director of the China Centrum Tübingen (CCT).
They write that even though "the travel group could not ascertain general discrimination against the Uighur language and culture, in Xinjiang, as in all areas of ethnic minorities with their language and script, the main language of instruction in schools from secondary level is Mandarin. The native language is always offered as a subject in compulsory schooling."
Their conclusion: "If the human rights situation continues to normalize demonstrably, the EU should initiate dialogue and reconsider the sanctions imposed on China due to Xinjiang."
Also: https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
And if there are any genocides going on, things like this wouldn't even happen: Xinjiang defies Western curbs as foreign trade hits record high, surges by 47%
Alright! Thanks for this, I will check these out and get back to you, likely with follow up questions
Media companies and individual articles don't necessarily represent their entire countries, and these countries are not monoliths of opinion. Qatar for example voted multiple times against considering this a genocide, most recently in 2022 by voting to block a US initiative in the UNHRC trying to open up a debate about this.
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Again, it's only the white colonizer countries, who have been bombing Muslims for decades, that are trying to accuse their enemies of their own crimes. Why do you believe them?
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