Happy to say ive heard lots of great things from comrades who were there who include several NPC members.
https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1411121788701052933
https://twitter.com/Gaius_Gracchus_/status/1411129317208244224
https://twitter.com/nicolasmaduro/status/1411150426049810434
:maduro-coffee:
But I was told the DSA was full of social imperialists, and that they weren't True Leftists
lol i really do hear this kind of fed shit all the time from terminally online people on like r/genzedong
I think the real motivation behind this kind of sentiment is, (to paraphrase :matt:), doing praxis is cringe, building dual power is cringe, you cannot and will not swing against the capitalists without sacrificing the perfect, unassailable righteousness of internet leftism. The world will ask you and your comrades questions which you do not yet know the answer to, and which the dead movements of the past cannot answer sufficiently, because your task is to create from whole cloth a world that has never existed before.
Theres definitely a weird defeatism about it all, because the reality is the choices we have in what we engage with in regards to building a socialist movement here are limited, and thats true of anywhere. I think DSA will play a central role in the development of this movement here and theres lots of stuff that sucks about this org but thats more indicative of the general left here in the US more so than DSA itself, cause this whole Venezuela delegation is ran by the National Political Committee, so its not like its some random thing. But also its a lot of work and constant dedication and its not fun all the time and you lose a lot so i get why ppl might not all jump on board or have hesitations but i dont think its optional and the faster ppl jump on board and try to figure all this shit out together the quicker we get somewhere.
the reality is the choices we have in what we engage with in regards to building a socialist movement here are limited,
"the reality is (lots of words to obscure historical materialism)" Ok Karen!
the faster ppl jump on board and try to figure all this shit out together the quicker we get somewhere
"get on board to go somewhere" Biden 2024
I'm beginning to think that Kraz Mazov fucked me over personally.
I was talking to a comrade once and he said if we know a fed is in, we make them do the dumbest tasks.
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE CITIZEN, THE OUTSIDE WORLD IS IMPURE,
DSA try to understand historical materialism challenge
Class traitor bourgeoisie settlers: "Oh no my fancy coffee is $1 more, time to vote for Trump"
Me the one true leftist: "check out my cool new meme about groups being feds based on what my favorite podcaster just told me"
Me the galaxy brained leftist: buys chiapas coffee from the schools for chiapas squad - probably the closest place to communism on the planet.
Sip those sweet sweet grounds 👌🏿
Didn't you make this comment at least once already? How many people are living rent free in your head? Plus if these people exist and are that cynical they can just say the CPC met with CPUSA recently and we know they are an asset
I swear people have complained before about an imagined/predicted response to DSA meeting Maduro. Like wait till those posts come in before deciding that people are making them everywhere, or that cynical online-poisoned folks are gonna seethe over this when they can just point to CPUSA. It just feels petty towards people who, if they exist, are so minuscule.
feels pretty :LIB:
edit: found the thread iirc, geez its a massacre, like half the comments are deleted. https://hexbear.net/post/111753
Well, yeah, which implies half of the responses are “deliberately ignoring”
I mean probably, but also they seemingly don't make up some major force. I like this comment though
God half this thread is people deliberately ignoring that the IC has repeatedly supported Maduro’s gov, and is going to Peru as left-wing election monitors. Maybe I’m expecting too much of people, but the least you could do is read some shit by the people you’re sure are the grave-diggers of the American left’s future
I am not saying no one criticized DSA, but I don't understand the attitude that this is a dunk on a massive or vocal subset of people here. People who have been shocked have been called out and deleted their comments, so its not like this is some major contingent, or at least one that would take them meeting as reason to reverse whatever stance they boxed themselves into. Like I said, someone who wants to hate DSA will just say that the CPC met with CPUSA recently.
Anyone who is dunked on is either those people here who are ignorant and deleted their comments after being informed, OR they are ultras who care more about bitching about DSA all the time and it wont matter to them either way. That's what I am saying, the two types no better now and are willing to change, or are those aholes we all know on twitter who respond to every DSA tweet with vitriol. The dunking just seems more like self aggrandizing spite than anything. No one is standing by their "DSA is social imperialist, how could they go to meet Maduro!?!" stance here if they had it. I don't like that the response to something good is envisioning someone to get mad at.
I should have clarified that better, but hey you engaged in good faith so thanks. that's different
No one is standing by their “DSA is social imperialist, how could they go to meet Maduro!?!” stance here if they had it
This is from three days ago. Plenty of people are still beating the "social imperialist" drum.
There's plenty of room for criticism of the DSA, but that criticism shouldn't be selective or done in bad faith.
Good faith criticism doesn't zero in on the bad and frame it in the worst possible light. It places a bad statement/act in context of whatever else the person says/does on the topic, and it considers that some bad things may be due to ignorance or mistake instead of the person being shitty.
Take a look at some of AOC's other comments on imperialism, colonialism, and foreign policy. In that context, harping on her "deferred to caucus leadership" comment is blatantly misleading. It's the type of slant-by-omission you'd expect to see from someone running a smear campaign, not someone making a good-faith criticism. Clearly her views are more complicated than a blanket support of imperialism, and criticism should reflect that.
Yeah but that was specifically on her talking about Tibet. I get that she is generally better than that, but not every critique needs to be couched in caveats
If it had been limited to her comments on Tibet, I would agree with you. But it brought up Venezuela, too.
If someone brings up a vague statement on Venezuela, frames it as damning, and omits a half-dozen clearer, much better statements on the topic, that's bad-faith criticism.
Sure, amidst good faith and warranted critiques. If something about Venezuela slips through into that, then I think the larger problem is with how statements like the Tibet one feed conscious and unconscious assumptions about the org. It confirms a bad faith read on Venezuela, because that negativity was vindicated with Tibet. I dont have an answer for that, nor would I say it is good; but it certainly is a problem and I get why it happens
omits a half-dozen clearer, much better statements on the topic,
bourgeois transparency 👁️
frame it in the worst possible light.
in context of whatever else the person says/does on the topic
You're never going to get labor aristocrat Karens to do historical materialism, that would require reckoning with their material reality and not their idealist delusions.
Clearly her views are more complicated than a blanket support of imperialism,
she glows in the dark, but the light is very complicated patterns!
That was some blatant bait, the Tibet thing was a while back no reason someone would repost it in earnest right now. But also AOC is not DSA. I wouldn't criticize people for praising this meeting and also condemning AOC for what she said. I would argue it would be bad faith to conflate criticism based on ignorance or essentializing the entire org with criticizing a specific statement/politician. Bafflement over DSA meeting with Maduro and disliking what AOC said are not mutually inclusive
AOC is easily the most high-profile member of the DSA. I get that she doesn't speak for the organization, but it's not hard to see the parallels between how she's viewed on the left and how the DSA is viewed.
100%, which is why it is fair to criticize comments like hers. If her views parallel those of DSA even just in public opinion, then those views that are bad are all the more important to oppose. Even then I don't think too many people would suggest in earnest that DSA broadly agrees with her on Tibet, but maybe that's putting too much faith in folks
Plenty of people are still beating the “social imperialist” drum.
User named after Marx is offended that people point out CIA imperialism manufacturing consent for genocide. Sounds about white!
There’s plenty of room for criticism of the DSA, but that criticism shouldn’t be selective or done in bad faith.
radlib justifications https://www.pastemagazine.com/politics/liberals/lectureporn-the-vulgar-art-of-liberal-narcissism/
By upbears probably, but we have some of them, dunk doesn’t imply that’s significant majority or major subset, just that such people exist :meow-floppy:
Like honestly biggest problem of socdems always been imperialism, if dsa is going so far out of the way to be different - good for them, they are nice cuddly socdems instead of m4a and chill kind imperialist ones.
dsa frequently catch strays of “objective wing” from euro socdem history and current shenanigans :sadness: so they can have some fun now :comfy-cool:
I am very glad they are doing this, and the IC had been based as fuck for a long time. I am hesitant with how everything involving them becomes a binary issue for the left. I've seem dedicated members get shit here for having nuanced critiques of their own org. They've always had channels open with PSUV, but the national caucus and plenty of actions have been frustratingly socdem particularly with imperialism. I want to celebrate this happening, while also not wanting to treat this as being indicative of DSA writ-large because when push-comes to shove the IC does not dictate the direction of the party and the national org needs to be challenged on foreign policy regardless of good things like this.
What I am saying is the International Caucus should coup the entire org
I dont expect you to know this because its not exactly public knowledge, but the International Committee is directly appointed by the National Political Committee which is the highest elected administrative body in DSA, elected by a convention of thousands of delegates from every chapter once every 2 years. The NPC appoints the leadership of the IC, and the NPC has to approve all the things the IC decides to do. So this IS national doing this, and the majority of the delegation that met with Maduro are NPC members and appointed IC leadership, that second post from Austin for example is one of the elected NPCs. This is as "national" as it gets ha
Gimme those details plz?
but yeah thanks that's cool to have clarified (I did know it was chosen by a national convention was all) however its not like the IC and the official line are the same. National level or not the IC is certainly more radical than the NPC. I am assuming they don't have the power to rescind endorsements or as easily pressure candidates to take their line? Cause that's what I was (half-jokingly) getting at. How much policy power does the International Committee have, cause we know how easily something like the UN can get away with a progressive resolution being passed, or a committee that is more radical only for any and all suggestions to be ignored.
Well for one thing we have BDS basically as a policy platform now which different chapters use to determine endorsements from, and for example all the NYC state and local reps and candidates support it. And we are taking up voting on a party platform this year, which includes a lot of things, you can read the draft here if curious. This sort of builds our general policies which individual chapters take up to make their endorsements process, but this differs a lot from state to state or region to region because of a lot of local factors that chapters will have to decide. There cant really be a single thing we can apply to everyone, tho theres ways to move towards that. The IC in that regard I think has made a lot of inroads in determining our foreign policy platform which is pretty great and the work done there is good too. What that's important for is building internal political ideology which is more impactful on what chapters decide to take up in regards to different policy matters for candidates. But yeah basically the political makeup of our candidates is more indicative of the state of the left and the us in general than DSA itself.
Nice to hear, specifically about BDS. Always a work in progress, but the IC is giving me faith. Is there any way to specifically help the IC and their work?
Yeah I think theres a lot of stuff about DSA in general thats not so obvious unless youre actually in it working on this stuff. If youre in DSA you should apply to join the IC and theres several subcommittees you can join depending on what you're interested in.
That’s fair with nuance, but I think natural ebb and flow of “this is shit, they are all bad, this is rad, they are all good” are just consequences of talking about single event, and kinda fair game (or at least natural structural consequence)
Re: last point :sankara-shining:
But I was told the DSA was full of social imperialists,
the green new deal relies on exploitation of Latin America, but if we meet them on tv then its fine :maybe-later-kiddo:
they should have given him a sword
:maduro-gift: :maduro-katana-1::maduro-katana-2:Socialism is when you give people swords and the more swords you give the socialister it is
Y'know, I bet there's a lot more mass-produced mall ninja swords around today than there were hand-forged swords in the middle ages
DSA Karens waste socialist leaders time by having meet cute where they probably just ask for starbucks and look at iPhones all day.
Woke: wasting AES leaders time
Broke: listening to Settlers audiobook on repeat while posting on Adderall
probably just ask for starbucks and look at iPhones all day.
woke apartheid org is shocked to find out that their chocolate treats are made with child slave labor
So are you leaning into the bit or did you not get this post was made literally to mock you?
I've heard before that the DSA's International Relations committee or whatever is way more radical than the rest of the org's leadership
not really cause its directly appointed by the orgs national leadership. like several of those ppl in Venezuela are national leadership
It's anti-imperialist now, which is a minority opinion among DSA members imo.
"Haha this is so awkward"
— Eugene Libguy, author of a Twitter thread explaining how Maduro is red fash
