The UN Courts and security council (so China and Russia included) have told Venezuela to back down. So we have to wait and see if Maduro goes through with this. Guyana has already started mobilizing their small military and looking for guarantees.
True, but that still doesn’t give Maduro free reign to go “Hehe mine now :3”, especially seeing as this is a pretty obvious “Argentinian-Falklands”-esque gambit designed to distract the Venezuelan people from their conditions.
Plus while the claim is old, it’s very convenient that this random unremarkable region has some of the largest mineral and oil deposits in the world.
True, but that still doesn’t give Maduro free reign to go “Hehe mine now :3”
I'm kind of bewildered by the great manning going on ITT.
distract the Venezuelan people from their conditions
random unremarkable region has some of the largest mineral and oil deposits in the world
Does one not obviously feed into the other, here? Venezuelan access to those deposits obviously implies a healthier, stronger economy.
I think blowing this up into something it is not is a dangerous game. Venezuela is not an empire, nor does it aspire to be. It is a nation in the global south that should maintain the sovereignty to define its own borders, especially when those borders have been encroached upon by comprador / puppet regimes funneling wealth back to the ACTUAL empire. Especially when those borders only exist the way they do because of ACTUAL empires!
So Venezuela should be able to annex it’s neighbors? Really? That’s the take you’re defending? Why doesn’t China annex Mongolia, Korea, and large parts of Southeast Asia? They also have historical claims to those regions, and they can use their resources to further their aims. Is that your take?
Also great manning? He’s the one pushing for this claim, the one who introduced the referendum, and the one who seems really eager for the results.
The entire reason Hugo Chavez rescinded this claim is because Castro asked him to calm tensions and give up a capital motivated claim. I’m sorry; but I’m sure Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez are wrong here too in your view.
“Access to a healthier, stronger economy”
Ok, the same can be said for every country, that doesn’t make it right in any sense.
I didn't say it was right or correct. I said it was a Venezuelan national issue.
You've quite a penchant for putting words in others' mouths. I am only saying that chalking this all up to imperial ambition or the whims of a single political figure is myopic and betrays a lack of historical context. The borders exist as they do today because of the British empire. Guyana was a British colony until 1966.
My view? I never said anyone was wrong. I never said anyone was right. I'm examining the reality of the situation. In the real world, calling Venezuela an empire is silly as fuck, as is insinuating that Maduro is making all of these decisions single-handedly.
Russia and China regularly and correctly call out the U.S. for trying to be the world police. I don't think that they should police Venezuela in the U.S.'s stead. This is a Venezuelan and Guyanese issue. An issue whose blame falls squarely at the feet of empire.
Why doesn’t China annex Mongolia, Korea, and large parts of Southeast Asia? They also have historical claims to those regions, and they can use their resources to further their aims.
I don't think any country "should" annex any country unless a) it's necessary to stop atrocities and/or prevent future ones (e.g. the Soviets annexing/taking control/whatever you want to call it Eastern Europe up to Berlin), or b) the people there actually want to be part of the country that is doing the annexing (e.g. Crimea, Donbass). But I can't personally assign anything other than a moral claim on the word "should", in the same way that you "should" help a stranger if you have the ability to do so (with various qualifications about your own safety etc). It's all just authority and violence and military power at the end of the day.
Cuba "should" be able to get Guantánamo Bay back by force - but they obviously cannot, or the US would destroy them. If a large majority of people in the Essequibo want to join Venezuela - keeping in mind that relatively few people actually live there compared to eastern Guyana - then sure, I guess, Venezuela "should" be able to annex it. But unless Maduro is confident about his abilities to withstand US pressure and potential military bombardments, I don't think it's a war we have to worry about actually happening.
"Should" countries be able to attack Western-aligned countries? I don't know, maybe. If China started raining down missiles on Japan tomorrow, or the DPRK attacked South Korea tomorrow, or Cuba attacked Guantánamo Bay tomorrow, or, indeed, if Venezuela attacked Guyana tomorrow, would my reaction be "Oh no! Those poor places being invaded! This is strongly against international law, and we must condemn this attempts at annexation!" It probably wouldn't, I would support China/DPRK/Cuba/Venezuela, because I don't give a shit about international law if it benefits imperialists. People who jerk off about how important international law is (like most Western politicians) have the exact same perspective as me but in reverse - they don't give a shit about it if it benefits countries/areas being exploited (comparing their reactions to Ukraine being invaded and the Gaza Genocide is a good case in point for this). I just don't pretend to support international law, while those people do pretend to.
Because the North is cool and good and thus annexing it would be kinda shitty, and the south is backed by the US so annexing it would mean a way more involved war than anyone should advocate for
Idk anything about Mongolia but my ignorant american impression is that it's mostly just empty steppes and mountains and stuff with nobody living in it which I'm sure could be put to use for a wide variety of things but like why would they lol
So your first point is that countries can be freely invaded if you have a claim on them, as long as they aren’t AES or defended by a larger nuclear power?
That’s just the American “Might makes right” insane justification for their imperialism.
Mongolia is filled with extremely valuable heavy metals and elements, such as Uranium, under those steppes. Along with gold, silver, copper, and coal.
There is a lot of wealth to extract from Mongolia, and I’m using it as an example to say that if Venezuela can do this, why can China not use its historical claim on Mongolia to annex those resources. It would be absurd, which is exactly my point.
The topic is about Guyana. A 21st century British colony that essentially had a form of plantation slavery in 1970. Almost all its trade still goes to England as it did in the 17th century. This is not a sovereign nation. Does British Petroleum have the right to rule wherever they want?
What? Thats just blatantly false, Guyana's top trade partners are 1.7 billion with the US, 700m to Singapore, and 250m to the UAE. The UK is in fourth place with only 6 percent of the market trade share. How is that "most of the trade still goes to the UK?" They trade with dozens of countries.
Also yes... Guyana was a British colony that utilized plantation slavery. Same as in a lot of British colonies. Its a shame that the indigenous leadership that arose afterwards nationalized all of those assets and tore down the plantation system.
Why lie? Really? "They aren't a sovereign nation?" If this was any other western country encroaching their neighbor for resources you would be frothing at the mouth in defense, but because its Venezuela you're perfectly alright with resource annexation?
If you're going to try and defend this, at least try to not make random facts up.
My bad, let’s switch BP with Exxon Mobil. As is, The country is dominated by imperial powers. I genuinely do not care what Venezuela is doing there because I am aware that the US and Britain have been meddling there in a far greater capacity. I also live in the west, so my countries leader probably has diplomatic ties to England or the US and is currently sanctioning Venezuela. I’d say my voice would go a lot further discussing the west ties to these nation rather than a nation like Venezuela where the only course left for the west is military engagement. It’s almost like you are rooting for western military intervention, and that comes across as an odd place to be on an anti imperialist forum.
(Yea They Nationalized things but we’re then overthrown in well documented election interference campaigns to elect neoliberal. Look at a map and see who is drilling for these resources, it’s Exxon Mobil.)
Entire nation is CIA when they sell 6% of their off-shore oil share to a company.
I guess Venezuela is also a puppet state because they sold a large market share to China's state oil company upfront, and they don't see another dime throughout the extraction.
So your first point is that countries can be freely invaded if you have a claim on them, as long as they aren’t AES or defended by a larger nuclear power?
Yeah basically. I mean I don't even care about "claims" or law or whatever. If socialists attack and defeat reactionary forces and wrest control of resources away from them, I'm in favor of that, end of story.
Imperialism and annexation is good when Venezuela does it!
Don't make me tap the sign.
Show
Are you saying China and Russia are wrong?
They've been wrong before. They've been wrong recently. This is a national question regarding Venezuelan sovereignty. It is not China or Russia or any other global power's business. The UNSC sanctions the shit out of the DPRK for having the audacity to protect themselves, for one example.
Are Castro and Chavez also wrong in this case? I’m taking the same stance that Chavez took when he rescinded the claim.
I’m sure you’re right though; Venezuela annexing it’s neighbor for money and resources is a wonderful idea.
Are you also saying that countries cannot be locally imperialist to their neighbors through expansionary polices? You don’t have to the the second coming of the British Empire.
Tell me with the straight face that the motivation for this is not money, resources, and capital. Through the means of militarily annexing a neighboring country.
You can still be a local imperialist if you yourself are oppressed. Is Venezuela not taking an expansionary stance through economic and military means to increase their regional power and resource control?
Guyana is the aggressor because it is being used as an instrument of the United States and US capital to attack Venezuela. (edit I originally wrote Guyana twice)
The entire source is the Venezuelan Interior Minister. I wonder why he would an incentive to claim that? Why was that claim thrown out by the UN court? That is currently headed by judges from Brazil, China, Russia, Uganda, Morocco, Jamaica, Lebanon, Japan, Germany, and Australia.
Are you saying that those judges from countries aligned against the US are all biased against Venezuela?
“SouthCOM cooperating closely”
You’re serious right? 😭 The Guyanese ambassador met with them… once. They didn’t even come to any agreements or announcements. It was a formality. That’s the entire point of diplomacy.
You’re stretching hard to try and justify this; and every lie takes 10 times the effort to disprove. Keep trying to justify annexing a sovereign nation.
I to can also link random articles to local imperialism, would you like me too?
No investigation, no right to speak? How about you keep lying out of your teeth. I think Mao was quite against that too.
You’re the one who commented to me initially. Why did you if you don’t want to argue? Your first comment was pretty confrontational on top of that, what did you expect would happen?
Referendums, not too dissimilar from those held in Donetsk and Luhansk, have shown overwhelming support. Millions of people are saying yes to re-incorporating this territory.
Unless we have suddenly decided that the Venezuelan voting process is in fact fraudulent, this is something that needs to be properly grappled with and not simply an issue delegated to the maniacal whims of an all-powerful despot. Remain cognizant of this. Venezuela has democratic processes for these kinds of decisions.
Yes, a having referendum into launching an invasion of a sovereign nation makes it perfectly alright! My mistake.
How does the democratic process come into play into this situation? This policy doesn’t just affect Venezuelans, it affects the citizens of an entirely different nation. Through war…. for resources
AFAIK the referendums were held in Venezuela. If there was one from the region in question showing that the people living there yearn for liberation, that would be different.
I very very much doubt that Maduro said that.
He has, specifically it is him claiming an oil rich area of Guyana, which Venezuela taking would violate Guyana’s sovereignty and international law.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/03/world/americas/maduro-vote-essequibo-guyana.html
https://apnews.com/article/venezuela-guyana-essequibo-territory-dispute-maduro-referendum-90a4f0f962a83620903987a68a7d39b0
The UN Courts and security council (so China and Russia included) have told Venezuela to back down. So we have to wait and see if Maduro goes through with this. Guyana has already started mobilizing their small military and looking for guarantees.
https://apnews.com/article/venezuela-guyana-maduro-referendum-essequibo-c031c2e6264392183503d988d6346e8e
The territorial claim is very old, waaay before the discovery of oil. Its similar to Nicaragua and Belize.
True, but that still doesn’t give Maduro free reign to go “Hehe mine now :3”, especially seeing as this is a pretty obvious “Argentinian-Falklands”-esque gambit designed to distract the Venezuelan people from their conditions.
Plus while the claim is old, it’s very convenient that this random unremarkable region has some of the largest mineral and oil deposits in the world.
but Guyana is cringe and Venezuela is based so I'm still supporting their claim to the territory
I'm kind of bewildered by the great manning going on ITT.
Does one not obviously feed into the other, here? Venezuelan access to those deposits obviously implies a healthier, stronger economy.
I think blowing this up into something it is not is a dangerous game. Venezuela is not an empire, nor does it aspire to be. It is a nation in the global south that should maintain the sovereignty to define its own borders, especially when those borders have been encroached upon by comprador / puppet regimes funneling wealth back to the ACTUAL empire. Especially when those borders only exist the way they do because of ACTUAL empires!
So Venezuela should be able to annex it’s neighbors? Really? That’s the take you’re defending? Why doesn’t China annex Mongolia, Korea, and large parts of Southeast Asia? They also have historical claims to those regions, and they can use their resources to further their aims. Is that your take?
Also great manning? He’s the one pushing for this claim, the one who introduced the referendum, and the one who seems really eager for the results.
The entire reason Hugo Chavez rescinded this claim is because Castro asked him to calm tensions and give up a capital motivated claim. I’m sorry; but I’m sure Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez are wrong here too in your view.
“Access to a healthier, stronger economy”
Ok, the same can be said for every country, that doesn’t make it right in any sense.
I didn't say it was right or correct. I said it was a Venezuelan national issue.
You've quite a penchant for putting words in others' mouths. I am only saying that chalking this all up to imperial ambition or the whims of a single political figure is myopic and betrays a lack of historical context. The borders exist as they do today because of the British empire. Guyana was a British colony until 1966.
My view? I never said anyone was wrong. I never said anyone was right. I'm examining the reality of the situation. In the real world, calling Venezuela an empire is silly as fuck, as is insinuating that Maduro is making all of these decisions single-handedly.
Russia and China regularly and correctly call out the U.S. for trying to be the world police. I don't think that they should police Venezuela in the U.S.'s stead. This is a Venezuelan and Guyanese issue. An issue whose blame falls squarely at the feet of empire.
I don't think any country "should" annex any country unless a) it's necessary to stop atrocities and/or prevent future ones (e.g. the Soviets annexing/taking control/whatever you want to call it Eastern Europe up to Berlin), or b) the people there actually want to be part of the country that is doing the annexing (e.g. Crimea, Donbass). But I can't personally assign anything other than a moral claim on the word "should", in the same way that you "should" help a stranger if you have the ability to do so (with various qualifications about your own safety etc). It's all just authority and violence and military power at the end of the day.
Cuba "should" be able to get Guantánamo Bay back by force - but they obviously cannot, or the US would destroy them. If a large majority of people in the Essequibo want to join Venezuela - keeping in mind that relatively few people actually live there compared to eastern Guyana - then sure, I guess, Venezuela "should" be able to annex it. But unless Maduro is confident about his abilities to withstand US pressure and potential military bombardments, I don't think it's a war we have to worry about actually happening.
"Should" countries be able to attack Western-aligned countries? I don't know, maybe. If China started raining down missiles on Japan tomorrow, or the DPRK attacked South Korea tomorrow, or Cuba attacked Guantánamo Bay tomorrow, or, indeed, if Venezuela attacked Guyana tomorrow, would my reaction be "Oh no! Those poor places being invaded! This is strongly against international law, and we must condemn this attempts at annexation!" It probably wouldn't, I would support China/DPRK/Cuba/Venezuela, because I don't give a shit about international law if it benefits imperialists. People who jerk off about how important international law is (like most Western politicians) have the exact same perspective as me but in reverse - they don't give a shit about it if it benefits countries/areas being exploited (comparing their reactions to Ukraine being invaded and the Gaza Genocide is a good case in point for this). I just don't pretend to support international law, while those people do pretend to.
Because the North is cool and good and thus annexing it would be kinda shitty, and the south is backed by the US so annexing it would mean a way more involved war than anyone should advocate for
Idk anything about Mongolia but my ignorant american impression is that it's mostly just empty steppes and mountains and stuff with nobody living in it which I'm sure could be put to use for a wide variety of things but like why would they lol
So your first point is that countries can be freely invaded if you have a claim on them, as long as they aren’t AES or defended by a larger nuclear power?
That’s just the American “Might makes right” insane justification for their imperialism.
Mongolia is filled with extremely valuable heavy metals and elements, such as Uranium, under those steppes. Along with gold, silver, copper, and coal.
There is a lot of wealth to extract from Mongolia, and I’m using it as an example to say that if Venezuela can do this, why can China not use its historical claim on Mongolia to annex those resources. It would be absurd, which is exactly my point.
The topic is about Guyana. A 21st century British colony that essentially had a form of plantation slavery in 1970. Almost all its trade still goes to England as it did in the 17th century. This is not a sovereign nation. Does British Petroleum have the right to rule wherever they want?
What? Thats just blatantly false, Guyana's top trade partners are 1.7 billion with the US, 700m to Singapore, and 250m to the UAE. The UK is in fourth place with only 6 percent of the market trade share. How is that "most of the trade still goes to the UK?" They trade with dozens of countries.
https://wits.worldbank.org/CountrySnapshot/en/GUY/textview#:~:text=Guyana%20exports%20to%20United%20States,partner%20share%20of%206.90%20percent.
Also yes... Guyana was a British colony that utilized plantation slavery. Same as in a lot of British colonies. Its a shame that the indigenous leadership that arose afterwards nationalized all of those assets and tore down the plantation system.
Why lie? Really? "They aren't a sovereign nation?" If this was any other western country encroaching their neighbor for resources you would be frothing at the mouth in defense, but because its Venezuela you're perfectly alright with resource annexation?
If you're going to try and defend this, at least try to not make random facts up.
My bad, let’s switch BP with Exxon Mobil. As is, The country is dominated by imperial powers. I genuinely do not care what Venezuela is doing there because I am aware that the US and Britain have been meddling there in a far greater capacity. I also live in the west, so my countries leader probably has diplomatic ties to England or the US and is currently sanctioning Venezuela. I’d say my voice would go a lot further discussing the west ties to these nation rather than a nation like Venezuela where the only course left for the west is military engagement. It’s almost like you are rooting for western military intervention, and that comes across as an odd place to be on an anti imperialist forum.
(Yea They Nationalized things but we’re then overthrown in well documented election interference campaigns to elect neoliberal. Look at a map and see who is drilling for these resources, it’s Exxon Mobil.)
Denying the agency of the smol bean CIA
Entire nation is CIA when they sell 6% of their off-shore oil share to a company.
I guess Venezuela is also a puppet state because they sold a large market share to China's state oil company upfront, and they don't see another dime throughout the extraction.
Yeah basically. I mean I don't even care about "claims" or law or whatever. If socialists attack and defeat reactionary forces and wrest control of resources away from them, I'm in favor of that, end of story.
I really wish Venezuela would violate international sovereignty and annex my country of the US and A
Inshallah
I would support that.
I also get my news about Venezuela from the New York Times.
I’m just attaching relevant sources. There are plenty of news agencies talking about this. The New York Times is a lib source of course.
Is Al-Jezera better? There you go:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/4/venezuela-approves-referendum-on-oil-rich-guyana-territory
deleted by creator
You’re right 😂
Imperialism and annexation is good when Venezuela does it!
Also your sources are god awful. They exclude a massive amount of information and hyperfocus on bizarre tangents.
Again, the security council unanimously gave their response. Are you saying China and Russia are wrong?
Don't make me tap the sign.
They've been wrong before. They've been wrong recently. This is a national question regarding Venezuelan sovereignty. It is not China or Russia or any other global power's business. The UNSC sanctions the shit out of the DPRK for having the audacity to protect themselves, for one example.
Are Castro and Chavez also wrong in this case? I’m taking the same stance that Chavez took when he rescinded the claim. I’m sure you’re right though; Venezuela annexing it’s neighbor for money and resources is a wonderful idea.
Are you also saying that countries cannot be locally imperialist to their neighbors through expansionary polices? You don’t have to the the second coming of the British Empire.
deleted by creator
What is it then? What is the word you would use to describe a country using hard power to annex its neighbors for their resources?
“Friendly negotiations?”
“Trade agreement?”
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Tell me with the straight face that the motivation for this is not money, resources, and capital. Through the means of militarily annexing a neighboring country.
You can still be a local imperialist if you yourself are oppressed. Is Venezuela not taking an expansionary stance through economic and military means to increase their regional power and resource control?
Guyana is the aggressor because it is being used as an instrument of the United States and US capital to attack Venezuela. (edit I originally wrote Guyana twice)
ExxonMobil is paying their bills
US SOUTHCOM cooperating closely with fake Guyanaese president comprador sellout
So do me a favor
Read an article about how imperialism actually works maybe.
Or learn about the actual history of Essequibo maybe.
Or just follow the guidance of Mao Zedong that those who have done no investigation have no right to speak.
“Exxon is paying their bills?”
The entire source is the Venezuelan Interior Minister. I wonder why he would an incentive to claim that? Why was that claim thrown out by the UN court? That is currently headed by judges from Brazil, China, Russia, Uganda, Morocco, Jamaica, Lebanon, Japan, Germany, and Australia.
Are you saying that those judges from countries aligned against the US are all biased against Venezuela?
“SouthCOM cooperating closely”
You’re serious right? 😭 The Guyanese ambassador met with them… once. They didn’t even come to any agreements or announcements. It was a formality. That’s the entire point of diplomacy.
You’re stretching hard to try and justify this; and every lie takes 10 times the effort to disprove. Keep trying to justify annexing a sovereign nation.
I to can also link random articles to local imperialism, would you like me too?
No investigation, no right to speak? How about you keep lying out of your teeth. I think Mao was quite against that too.
deleted by creator
You’re the one who commented to me initially. Why did you if you don’t want to argue? Your first comment was pretty confrontational on top of that, what did you expect would happen?
So I think I’ll pass. Thanks for the offer.
Maduro going in would be an insanely boneheaded move
It is not "Maduro going in".
Referendums, not too dissimilar from those held in Donetsk and Luhansk, have shown overwhelming support. Millions of people are saying yes to re-incorporating this territory.
Unless we have suddenly decided that the Venezuelan voting process is in fact fraudulent, this is something that needs to be properly grappled with and not simply an issue delegated to the maniacal whims of an all-powerful despot. Remain cognizant of this. Venezuela has democratic processes for these kinds of decisions.
Yes, a having referendum into launching an invasion of a sovereign nation makes it perfectly alright! My mistake.
How does the democratic process come into play into this situation? This policy doesn’t just affect Venezuelans, it affects the citizens of an entirely different nation. Through war…. for resources
AFAIK the referendums were held in Venezuela. If there was one from the region in question showing that the people living there yearn for liberation, that would be different.
There are very few people in the region, and every time the issue was raised in the past 60 years, they have wanted to remain with Guyana.
This is solely motivated by resource extraction.