This is the road to purity testing the left into a thousand different insignificant reading groups.
If we want to actually accomplish anything, we need people who can do mainstream politics. Sometimes that means prefacing the #1 thing the left wants to do regarding Cuba with some mealy-mouthed lib shit. When someone comes along and figures out how to do mainstream politics while saying "every country you've been taught to hate for generations is good, actually," I'll support them wholeheartedly. Until then, shitting all over a congressperson calling for the end of the embargo is what you do if you want to lose.
You know what, imagine Trump said this -- word for word. People here would be doing backflips over how great the comments on the embargo were, they'd be saying no Democrat would ever say that, and they'd gloss over the first part because it's expected that someone who grew up in the most anticommunist country on the planet would have some of that left over. When you treat Trump's comments more generously than AOC's, your priorities are fucked.
First, there is nothing to strategize about. We are not organized. AOC gets to lie and call herself a socialist in part because there are no socialist orgs large enough and minimally principled enough to even ask the question, "should we call that out?" Instead, these bourgeous-adjascent lib politicians drop morsels of Twitter-friendly talking points that "the left" picks up and either celebrates or rejects. There flow of power and information is top-down. We are just socialists on the internet commiserating.
Second, while we're attempting to talk about building something that actually could have such thing as a "purity test" (cool reference, Neera Tanden), i.e. minimally disciplined socialist organizations, we're going to have to actually have principles and discipline or there is exactly zero point to organizing. In this, there will always be a balance to strike between adhering to principles and discipline vs. embracing diversity of thought for growth purposes: what positions are worth enforcing and which are not?
Imperialism is the worst violence created by capitalism and the United States in particular. It's responsible for truly overwhelming amounts of death, injury, disposession, and misery for the most cynical and even pointless of reasons. It is also the most destructive to existing socialist countries, like hey fucking Cuba. Telling others that it's a "purity test" to prioritize the most impactful thing is disrespecting these violent realities and those who recognize them. You need a damn good reason to condescend to criticizing this regime change propaganda mouthpiece when they spread regime change propaganda under the banner of socialism.
I assume you don't know or aren't aware of anyone, or anyone who knows anyone, who's suffered and died at the hands of casual imperialist sociopathy. Must be nice.
Those Chapos would be (more than a proportionate fraction being Westerners) leftists who haven't fully shed the casual imperialism that turns the liberal human rights Kabuki into a weapon. They don't see that the (possibly valid, though not usually) human rights talking point isn't actually about whether you personally agree with it, which is how liberals process so much of politics. It might even be part of their sense of personal fulfillment, where political talking points are about being officially "informed" without actually knowing enough to sift out sufficient BS. They don't see that the talking points feed into manufacturing consent for the strategic violence of the state department, that it gives life to a media cycle with a tendency to whip up consent to war. That it is often just about giving cover for these pols to vote for imperialist legislation.
I feel like this is in a similar domain as the baby leftists who only care about Medicare for All.
I guess the best we can do is educate those who will listen and dunk on those unwilling.
Struggle sessions can be extremely productive as long as comrades keep on topic and stay calm(ish).
This thread is doing pretty good at that. Having to mod less than I thought. Also how the fuck do the sitemods do this for the entire site? This shit is time consuming.
You know what, imagine Trump said this – word for word. People here would be doing backflips over how great the comments on the embargo were, they’d be saying no Democrat would ever say that, and they’d gloss over the first part because it’s expected that someone who grew up in the most anticommunist country on the planet would have some of that left over. When you treat Trump’s comments more generously than AOC’s, your priorities are fucked.
For the record I think you're pretty much right, but it's just depressing that AOC is one of the most left wing figures in mainstream American politics and this is the level she's at.
This is the road to purity testing the left into a thousand different insignificant reading groups.
If we want to actually accomplish anything, we need people who can do mainstream politics. Sometimes that means prefacing the #1 thing the left wants to do regarding Cuba with some mealy-mouthed lib shit. When someone comes along and figures out how to do mainstream politics while saying "every country you've been taught to hate for generations is good, actually," I'll support them wholeheartedly. Until then, shitting all over a congressperson calling for the end of the embargo is what you do if you want to lose.
You know what, imagine Trump said this -- word for word. People here would be doing backflips over how great the comments on the embargo were, they'd be saying no Democrat would ever say that, and they'd gloss over the first part because it's expected that someone who grew up in the most anticommunist country on the planet would have some of that left over. When you treat Trump's comments more generously than AOC's, your priorities are fucked.
Yeah no.
First, there is nothing to strategize about. We are not organized. AOC gets to lie and call herself a socialist in part because there are no socialist orgs large enough and minimally principled enough to even ask the question, "should we call that out?" Instead, these bourgeous-adjascent lib politicians drop morsels of Twitter-friendly talking points that "the left" picks up and either celebrates or rejects. There flow of power and information is top-down. We are just socialists on the internet commiserating.
Second, while we're attempting to talk about building something that actually could have such thing as a "purity test" (cool reference, Neera Tanden), i.e. minimally disciplined socialist organizations, we're going to have to actually have principles and discipline or there is exactly zero point to organizing. In this, there will always be a balance to strike between adhering to principles and discipline vs. embracing diversity of thought for growth purposes: what positions are worth enforcing and which are not?
Imperialism is the worst violence created by capitalism and the United States in particular. It's responsible for truly overwhelming amounts of death, injury, disposession, and misery for the most cynical and even pointless of reasons. It is also the most destructive to existing socialist countries, like hey fucking Cuba. Telling others that it's a "purity test" to prioritize the most impactful thing is disrespecting these violent realities and those who recognize them. You need a damn good reason to condescend to criticizing this regime change propaganda mouthpiece when they spread regime change propaganda under the banner of socialism.
I assume you don't know or aren't aware of anyone, or anyone who knows anyone, who's suffered and died at the hands of casual imperialist sociopathy. Must be nice.
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Oh yeah, I remember that.
Those Chapos would be (more than a proportionate fraction being Westerners) leftists who haven't fully shed the casual imperialism that turns the liberal human rights Kabuki into a weapon. They don't see that the (possibly valid, though not usually) human rights talking point isn't actually about whether you personally agree with it, which is how liberals process so much of politics. It might even be part of their sense of personal fulfillment, where political talking points are about being officially "informed" without actually knowing enough to sift out sufficient BS. They don't see that the talking points feed into manufacturing consent for the strategic violence of the state department, that it gives life to a media cycle with a tendency to whip up consent to war. That it is often just about giving cover for these pols to vote for imperialist legislation.
I feel like this is in a similar domain as the baby leftists who only care about Medicare for All.
I guess the best we can do is educate those who will listen and dunk on those unwilling.
Struggle sessions can be extremely productive as long as comrades keep on topic and stay calm(ish).
This thread is doing pretty good at that. Having to mod less than I thought. Also how the fuck do the sitemods do this for the entire site? This shit is time consuming.
That was me years back, it takes a long time to learn, even if you're enthusiastic about that stuff.
Too bad we don't have anyone calling for an end to the most glaring example of imperialism towards Cuba.
Please try to have a modicum of good faith.
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Keep on simping for the US empire.
:what-the-hell:
For the record I think you're pretty much right, but it's just depressing that AOC is one of the most left wing figures in mainstream American politics and this is the level she's at.
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