• gayhobbes [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    Software engineering is almost always about architecture and infrastructure, rarely touches on programming. In fact most software engineers aren't exactly amazing programmers. That still holds true in the US.

    Source: am software engineer at a startup

    • Melon [she/her,they/them]
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      4 years ago

      ok whatever

      Software never gets into any engineering. Even if it's in a car, plane, or maglev train, software makers aren't involved in the legal and ethical regulations and guidelines licensed engineers have to go through. Software workers aren't apprenticed, nor are they tested by the state. The tech industry has grabbed at the term "engineer" just so their unreliable work can at least be legitimized in marketing alone.

      • gayhobbes [he/him]
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        4 years ago

        software makers aren’t involved in the legal and ethical regulations

        This is wrong

        guidelines licensed engineers have to go through

        This is also wrong

        Software workers aren’t apprenticed

        This is wrong in a lot of cases

        It sounds like you have kind of a chip on your shoulder about this term and are wrong about a lot of things that software engineers do. Just because the solutions designed are not physically real (which especially holds true with infrastructure as code) does not mean that they are not engineered or architected.

        • Melon [she/her,they/them]
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          4 years ago

          If you wish to take "engineer" as a verb then yeah, people engineer and manufacture and plan and whatever. "Engineer" as a noun, or as an occupation, is different. Software "engineers" don't go through FE tests. The legal ramifications are simply not comparable.

          I do have a chip on my shoulder because two of my siblings are real engineers, not "techies with degrees and an ethics class maybe".

          • gayhobbes [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            Oh lord you're gatekeeping something that doesn't even impact you. Literally half the engineers I work with came from other disciplines like electrical or mechanical but ended up in software because they preferred it over their background. What a very odd hill to die on.

            • Melon [she/her,they/them]
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              4 years ago

              Not an odd hill to die on. The names of professions shouldn't be dictated by marketing teams, especially when the names they think of have serious legal implications.

              • gayhobbes [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                What serious legal implications are you on about? I work with three security teams, an ethics board, and legal. My software doesn't even touch anything that would come close to causing harm, and that's just in my area.

                • Melon [she/her,they/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  you can start with this

                  In some states, it's illegal to advertise oneself as an "engineer" if they're not the kind of engineer that is recognized by the NCEES. That's not the norm, usually just falsely claiming to be an engineer is simply annoying and left at that.

                  • gayhobbes [he/him]
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                    4 years ago

                    I mean, the term has existed since '60s so it's not like this is a marketing thing that's brand new or anything, and the NCEES used to offer it. I dunno if I give a shit what Texas state law says about anything, really. But again I don't get your weird gatekeeping over the term, it sounds kind of like a pet peeve that's not even yours that you've picked up as a cause.

                    • Melon [she/her,they/them]
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                      4 years ago

                      The term "software engineer" has been used since the 60's in an effort to elicit some kind of sophisticated creation of software for the purpose of handling NATO nuclear warheads. There was a pretty obvious and explicit desire to have reliable code for something that deadly, and the care into making that software could be described as "engineering" but the use of the term was nonetheless criticized anyway because it took decades for the related software development to be satisfactory for NATO.

                      And, to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's as important to get your stuff made right as it was for NATO.

                      • gayhobbes [he/him]
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                        4 years ago

                        There was no single source. Margaret Hamilton used it entirely unbidden by that application to describe what she was doing for the Apollo missions.

                        I've worked with dozens and dozens of mechanical, electrical, optical, and environmental engineers as well as scientists and you are literally the first person I've ever spoken to who has given any shits about this.

                        • Melon [she/her,they/them]
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                          4 years ago

                          okay I concede it's silly of me to be pedantic with someone who does softwares in such a multi-disciplinary implementation

                          • gayhobbes [he/him]
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                            4 years ago

                            I mean if that's the case aren't you still risking being pedantic with others without knowing what they do?

                            • Melon [she/her,they/them]
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                              4 years ago

                              I mean I have met run-of-the-mill web devs and Java coders that call themselves "software engineers" so the term is abused too much to bother giving many graces.

                              • gayhobbes [he/him]
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                                4 years ago

                                Yeah I again don't really see any issue with that nor have any of my colleagues expressed any concern over that whatsoever. It's sort of like getting mad at the number of deans in American colleges like yes, there's a sort of title spam happening there, but it's irrelevant because who gives a fuck