Yeah, the USSR wasn’t much different from Russia under the Tsar
I'm talking about the previous society in the materialist dialectical geneology of societies as a whole.
Like I said, regardless of your opinion on the PCF and its actions (I’d say that they, like many western parties, were and are not great), you are crediting a tiny group of philosophers and artists for a movement which they absolutely did not start, and in which the vast majority of people definitely had not read Debord.
Debord and Marcuse in particular were widely read and responsible for a massive student movement. The banner of the three Ms (Marx, Mao, Marcuse) was like THE symbol of 1968.
Yes, still academic. It's like rule one of Marxism that you have to actually work in order to be a revolutionary class. Students are not a revolutionary class.
This is just a repackaging of people who achieved nothing in the imperial core shitting on people who achieved a whole lot in colonized nations.
Turns out this was not true (like many aspects of Marx's predictions about class consciousness and the standpoint of the proletariat) and that it's just as possible for labor organizing to be wildly reactionary in this given example.
This is just a repackaging of people who achieved nothing in the imperial core shitting on people who achieved a whole lot in colonized nations.
Not really. Any revolution has to be worldwide, and efforts to bring about revolution in the imperial core have far more impact than outside of it if that imperial core will just crush the latter again.
and efforts to bring about revolution in the imperial core have far more impact than outside of it if that imperial core will just crush the latter again.
Huh, funny how this isn't actually true when you look up from a philosophy treatise and at history.
I'm not a leftcom, I think there's a lot to rethink about orthodox Marxism from a revolutionary praxis sense, given that his predictions about the appearance of class consciousness never really played out, and will necessarily need to be rethought and refocused for different conditions (this is no different than Lenin or Mao's opinions on Marx's revolutionary praxis either, they also had to gut and rebuild it).
there’s a lot to rethink about orthodox Marxism from a revolutionary praxis sense, given that his predictions about the appearance of class consciousness never really played out
On this, we are completely agreed. I think our conclusions might be a bit divergent, though.
I think our conclusions might be a bit divergent, though.
Probably. I think the only way forward will be wresting the coercive control that the bourgeois have over us out of their hands before any revolutionary potential could be achieved. Until then, people are kept in neo-feudal alienation, in which we're surrounded by people but not community and every interaction we have with people is done through activities that make them an annoyance rather than a comrade. The suburbization of all of life, even if you don't live in suburbs. Mark Fisher had good ideas, drawing from the likes of Srnicek, and I'm not convinced that situationism is a dead end. As absurd as it sounds, the most spontaneous formation of community I've witnessed in the last decade has been when a company accidentally stumbled onto an app that sent people on situationist dérives. And that was a happy accident, I'd imagine something done with actual intent in building community bonds would be even more lasting.
efforts to bring about revolution in the imperial core have far more impact than outside of it
And that's why I wish r*dditros were right about china being imperialist cuz then the Imperial Core would shift to a place where revolutions had happened in the past
China is not overtly imperialist, but their economic maneuvering will likely give them the biggest say in the 21st century when it comes to how other countries behave.
I'm talking about the previous society in the materialist dialectical geneology of societies as a whole.
Debord and Marcuse in particular were widely read and responsible for a massive student movement. The banner of the three Ms (Marx, Mao, Marcuse) was like THE symbol of 1968.
Yes, still academic. It's like rule one of Marxism that you have to actually work in order to be a revolutionary class. Students are not a revolutionary class.
This is just a repackaging of people who achieved nothing in the imperial core shitting on people who achieved a whole lot in colonized nations.
Turns out this was not true (like many aspects of Marx's predictions about class consciousness and the standpoint of the proletariat) and that it's just as possible for labor organizing to be wildly reactionary in this given example.
Not really. Any revolution has to be worldwide, and efforts to bring about revolution in the imperial core have far more impact than outside of it if that imperial core will just crush the latter again.
Huh, funny how this isn't actually true when you look up from a philosophy treatise and at history.
Actually it is
Right, I think I'm done with this discussion.
Removed by mod
:agony-soviet: This, guys, gals, and enby pals, is why I don't like to argue with leftcoms. :bordiga-despair:
I'm not a leftcom, I think there's a lot to rethink about orthodox Marxism from a revolutionary praxis sense, given that his predictions about the appearance of class consciousness never really played out, and will necessarily need to be rethought and refocused for different conditions (this is no different than Lenin or Mao's opinions on Marx's revolutionary praxis either, they also had to gut and rebuild it).
On this, we are completely agreed. I think our conclusions might be a bit divergent, though.
Probably. I think the only way forward will be wresting the coercive control that the bourgeois have over us out of their hands before any revolutionary potential could be achieved. Until then, people are kept in neo-feudal alienation, in which we're surrounded by people but not community and every interaction we have with people is done through activities that make them an annoyance rather than a comrade. The suburbization of all of life, even if you don't live in suburbs. Mark Fisher had good ideas, drawing from the likes of Srnicek, and I'm not convinced that situationism is a dead end. As absurd as it sounds, the most spontaneous formation of community I've witnessed in the last decade has been when a company accidentally stumbled onto an app that sent people on situationist dérives. And that was a happy accident, I'd imagine something done with actual intent in building community bonds would be even more lasting.
And that's why I wish r*dditros were right about china being imperialist cuz then the Imperial Core would shift to a place where revolutions had happened in the past
:think-about-it:
China is not overtly imperialist, but their economic maneuvering will likely give them the biggest say in the 21st century when it comes to how other countries behave.