My take is that there are material conditions and incentives, but they are outweighed by the wealth of evidence showing that serving the US military is bad. Especially voluntarily. People definitely had more of an excuse back in the days when there was conscription, and rich people could legally hire substitutes, but even then, a confederate deserter is worth 10,000 confederate conscripts. “Just following orders” or “had to join to pay for college” ring hollow when you’re fundamentally serving an evil cause that increases social inequality.
Also, a large number of soldiers aren't joining up because they're poor, but for patriotic/propaganda reasons. If we're going to talk about material incentives and extreme poverty, let's be honest and say that for many that's not the issue.
Also, a large number of soldiers aren’t joining up because they’re poor, but for patriotic/propaganda reasons. If we’re going to talk about material incentives and extreme poverty, let’s be honest and say that for many that’s not the issue.
This is one of the points I’ve been trying to get across. Many are just misguided by propaganda, and many join because the material conditions the military provides. Not extreme poverty, but enough to make people think they would be better off joining. And I know I’m not the best at articulating a lot of what I’m trying to say, and I have personal experience in the military that will have others doubt my intentions.
Not extreme poverty, but enough to make people think they would be better off joining.
I think a lot of the people you're arguing with know and understand that. They just don't consider it to be a sufficient reason. It's known to everyone joining that war is about killing people.
While many soldiers are reachable, it's important to keep in mind what they did. I'm sure the ones that regret it certainly have it in mind at all times.
All this moral discussion isn't all that useful anyway. The central issue is that soldiers in America act as counter-revolutionary enforcers of empire, and it's natural to be suspicious of any who don't regret it.
Just upsets me when it feels as if no one is at least attempting to understand the point of view I have and am attempting to communicate. Maybe I am too hopeful that other veterans will see what I have seen or understand the lessons I have learned.
I just fills me with doomerism I guess. But I know we have had good faith discussion on other posts about this topic, and I appreciate you being able to clarify my points and give a fair critique of my argument comrade.
:solidarity: I think this is a difficult, emotionally charged topic for most people here, and that makes discussion of it often messy - and I don't exclude myself from that. I also think that many here actually agree on a lot of the core points, once the rhetoric dies down.
In any case, the fact that you participate in a party that has the goal of overthrowing the American state is, IMO, testament that you're discussing these points in good faith.
I know someone just saying it over the internet doesn’t mean much, but I promise these are all good faith arguments even if my wording is poor and my point doesn’t come across blatantly.
I’m not pro military (unless it’s the red army) and I’m certainly anti-imperialist. These topics as you said are emotionally charged for many, myself included, and it can always get messy.
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Also, a large number of soldiers aren't joining up because they're poor, but for patriotic/propaganda reasons. If we're going to talk about material incentives and extreme poverty, let's be honest and say that for many that's not the issue.
This is one of the points I’ve been trying to get across. Many are just misguided by propaganda, and many join because the material conditions the military provides. Not extreme poverty, but enough to make people think they would be better off joining. And I know I’m not the best at articulating a lot of what I’m trying to say, and I have personal experience in the military that will have others doubt my intentions.
I think a lot of the people you're arguing with know and understand that. They just don't consider it to be a sufficient reason. It's known to everyone joining that war is about killing people.
While many soldiers are reachable, it's important to keep in mind what they did. I'm sure the ones that regret it certainly have it in mind at all times.
All this moral discussion isn't all that useful anyway. The central issue is that soldiers in America act as counter-revolutionary enforcers of empire, and it's natural to be suspicious of any who don't regret it.
All valid points that I can’t argue with.
Just upsets me when it feels as if no one is at least attempting to understand the point of view I have and am attempting to communicate. Maybe I am too hopeful that other veterans will see what I have seen or understand the lessons I have learned.
I just fills me with doomerism I guess. But I know we have had good faith discussion on other posts about this topic, and I appreciate you being able to clarify my points and give a fair critique of my argument comrade.
:solidarity: I think this is a difficult, emotionally charged topic for most people here, and that makes discussion of it often messy - and I don't exclude myself from that. I also think that many here actually agree on a lot of the core points, once the rhetoric dies down.
In any case, the fact that you participate in a party that has the goal of overthrowing the American state is, IMO, testament that you're discussing these points in good faith.
I know someone just saying it over the internet doesn’t mean much, but I promise these are all good faith arguments even if my wording is poor and my point doesn’t come across blatantly.
I’m not pro military (unless it’s the red army) and I’m certainly anti-imperialist. These topics as you said are emotionally charged for many, myself included, and it can always get messy.
:stalin-shining: hell yeah
I think in the end, there was some productive discussion, and I understand where you're coming from with this. Hope you're doing OK.