Eunuch essentially means trans woman or enby fyi, unless forcefully made one by someone else. The cult of Cybele was very prevalent in Greece and they referred to themselves with female pronouns, many similar cases in the Levant and Persia. So let's not assume that it's gay, but it definitely was a queer situation
Very few people (some asexuals for example) would willingly become a eunuch outside of being trans or as a punishment.
I know from the courses I took that in the Byzantine world, becoming a eunuch could be an avenue to familial advancement, if you could get employment in the imperial palace bureaucracy in Constantinople. Some eunuchs even became powerful enough that they made their brothers emperor, like with Michael IV. It's all very interesting history to learn about.
yes, i actually know a trans lady that is wanting to write a book about trans history through a marxist lens, and a lot of societies were like this before industrialization and the spread of mercantilism. ive been helping her get into contact with people so she can touch on every region of the world, im mostly parroting what she has told to me. eunuchs (re: usually trans people) held an immense amount of power due to 'checking out' of inheritance, which was necessary for primitive accumulation and allowed bureaucracies and impartial judges to appear. to the point that eunuchs were THE people to please, and were given all sorts of things for free, like primitive hrt, food, money, surgeries, leniency for homosexuality in some homophobic societies, ability to create laws and solve marital and inheritance disputes, and so on
That's cool to hear that your friend is writing about the topic. It's interesting to explore that aspect of societies through a materialist lens like that. Just off the top of my head I'm thinking right now of how these societies essentially tried to use eunuchs to get around bureaucrats reducing the effect of meritocratic recruitment through generational acquisition of privileges through their offspring. But eunuchs like John the Orphanotrophos still found a way around it.
Didn't Alexander share a tent with his best friend Hephaestion though? With descriptions of them reading letters together, kissing a ring to the others lips to keep a secret, and Alexander "yielding to Hephaestion's thighs". And after Hephaestion died, Alexander showed immense grief.
That sounds very gay to me. Or bisexual and polygamous considering they also had wives. To be honest applying modern conceptions of sexuality to ancient Greek rulers probably doesn't work too well.
Oh cool, thanks for the interesting information, I didn't know that. Though it makes sense when you explain it.
It's interesting how you never really learn about these things in history class. I remember surprising my history teacher with some interesting questions. It should be taught, LGBT history. Trans history especially, given all the nonsense right wing propaganda out there about how "being transgender is a modern phenomenon".
Didn't Alexander share a tent with his best friend Hephaestion though?
Yes and Hephaestion had died less than a year before Alexander. His body had to be physical pried away from Alexander because he wouldn't leave it for the entire day. He wept and didn't eat for three days after and had the doctor looking after Hephaestion hanged. He declared an empire wide period of mourning. They also both married daughters of Darius and Alexander hoped that a child who was related to the both of them would one day rule. You know ... normal heterosexual things.
Hephaestion's wikipedia page is where they put all the gay stuff since I guess it's too offensive to have in Alexander's.
With descriptions of them reading letters together
Fellas, is it gay to read correspondence with another bro?
Jokes aside, I think we should be careful applying the sexual and cultural standards of modern western culture across borders and time. For example, it's still very common in the middle east for men who are friends to hold hands while walking down the street. To us that's a sign of homosexuality, to them it's just bros being bros.
That all being said, taking a stance that any ancient Greek figure was straight as we know it is hilarious.
so thats a later thing in the catholic church, but you can also find people that referred to themselves as women or a 'third gender' in that context. some however were also forced because the catholic church is problematic. in this catholic idea, eunuchs are sexless and do not have sex, but this was obviously not the case in so many instances.
eunuchs also had various roles in different cultures. there was a jewish king for example that had a eunuch in his harem was implied to be treated as a woman as a result (re: fucked like a woman). theres also some theories that Puyi was in love with his 'eunuch', and they lived together after the revolution in China (was told this by chinese friends) and might have been a big part of why he was spared (no progeny)
The big thing with being a eunuch is that the idea was that because you gave up having direct descendents, it meant that you could more easily be trusted to run bureaucratic tasks for the good of the royal line. Whether or not this works is one of those oft-debated ancient and medieval political science topics of the time (particularly in China) with most petty lords that would lead revolts against kings/emperors blaming the bad government on the influence of eunuchs. If this was true or not is unknown, but the ones that won were the victors so their histories survive.
As far as I am aware though, you are correct that the only culture that believed eunuchs to be 'sexless' is the Catholic Church.
Interesting, I didn't know the term had such a wide definition. I remembered it in the context of the Ottoman sultans, who used eunuchs to guard their harems.
The wider definition is becoming more common with recent scholarship, a lot of historians ommitted source materials on eunuchs demanding to be referred as women or otherwise, and some of this source material is even first person due to many eunuchs being clergy and literate
There's a lot of work being done on the restudy of history without chauvinism these days
Bear in mind this is kind of underselling the whole deal. If you live in a patrimonial state then the royal household is equivalent to the center of government. Relatives and close aides to the monarch are all influential, often serve in the administration and have the opportunity to accrue real power. Eunuchs guarding the harem means they are individuals who have access to all wings of the royal household, which is why they didn't just serve as guards or messengers or aides. Since the Ottomans often bought Eunuchs in the red sea, the chief black eunuchs were often in charge of religious endowments or vaqifs. Which means that they were in charge of some of the most important financial instruments in the empire.
It's like if the king of norway racistly believed that black ethiopians were the most courtly of peoples and bought an eunuch to administer a part of the country's sovereign wealth fund.
Eunuch essentially means trans woman or enby fyi, unless forcefully made one by someone else.
that vast majority of eunuchs were forcibly made eunuchs, and this is true across different cultures. Eunuchs would usually be servants or slaves who had been castrated to make them less threatening servants of a royal court where physical access to the ruler could wield great influence.
Eunuch essentially means trans woman or enby fyi, unless forcefully made one by someone else. The cult of Cybele was very prevalent in Greece and they referred to themselves with female pronouns, many similar cases in the Levant and Persia. So let's not assume that it's gay, but it definitely was a queer situation
Very few people (some asexuals for example) would willingly become a eunuch outside of being trans or as a punishment.
I know from the courses I took that in the Byzantine world, becoming a eunuch could be an avenue to familial advancement, if you could get employment in the imperial palace bureaucracy in Constantinople. Some eunuchs even became powerful enough that they made their brothers emperor, like with Michael IV. It's all very interesting history to learn about.
yes, i actually know a trans lady that is wanting to write a book about trans history through a marxist lens, and a lot of societies were like this before industrialization and the spread of mercantilism. ive been helping her get into contact with people so she can touch on every region of the world, im mostly parroting what she has told to me. eunuchs (re: usually trans people) held an immense amount of power due to 'checking out' of inheritance, which was necessary for primitive accumulation and allowed bureaucracies and impartial judges to appear. to the point that eunuchs were THE people to please, and were given all sorts of things for free, like primitive hrt, food, money, surgeries, leniency for homosexuality in some homophobic societies, ability to create laws and solve marital and inheritance disputes, and so on
That's cool to hear that your friend is writing about the topic. It's interesting to explore that aspect of societies through a materialist lens like that. Just off the top of my head I'm thinking right now of how these societies essentially tried to use eunuchs to get around bureaucrats reducing the effect of meritocratic recruitment through generational acquisition of privileges through their offspring. But eunuchs like John the Orphanotrophos still found a way around it.
Didn't Alexander share a tent with his best friend Hephaestion though? With descriptions of them reading letters together, kissing a ring to the others lips to keep a secret, and Alexander "yielding to Hephaestion's thighs". And after Hephaestion died, Alexander showed immense grief.
That sounds very gay to me. Or bisexual and polygamous considering they also had wives. To be honest applying modern conceptions of sexuality to ancient Greek rulers probably doesn't work too well.
of course, im not saying alexander wasnt gay or bi, but that eunuchs were often trans
Oh cool, thanks for the interesting information, I didn't know that. Though it makes sense when you explain it.
It's interesting how you never really learn about these things in history class. I remember surprising my history teacher with some interesting questions. It should be taught, LGBT history. Trans history especially, given all the nonsense right wing propaganda out there about how "being transgender is a modern phenomenon".
Yes and Hephaestion had died less than a year before Alexander. His body had to be physical pried away from Alexander because he wouldn't leave it for the entire day. He wept and didn't eat for three days after and had the doctor looking after Hephaestion hanged. He declared an empire wide period of mourning. They also both married daughters of Darius and Alexander hoped that a child who was related to the both of them would one day rule. You know ... normal heterosexual things.
Hephaestion's wikipedia page is where they put all the gay stuff since I guess it's too offensive to have in Alexander's.
Fellas, is it gay to read correspondence with another bro?
Jokes aside, I think we should be careful applying the sexual and cultural standards of modern western culture across borders and time. For example, it's still very common in the middle east for men who are friends to hold hands while walking down the street. To us that's a sign of homosexuality, to them it's just bros being bros.
That all being said, taking a stance that any ancient Greek figure was straight as we know it is hilarious.
Thought it was a male who was castrated before puberty?
so thats a later thing in the catholic church, but you can also find people that referred to themselves as women or a 'third gender' in that context. some however were also forced because the catholic church is problematic. in this catholic idea, eunuchs are sexless and do not have sex, but this was obviously not the case in so many instances.
eunuchs also had various roles in different cultures. there was a jewish king for example that had a eunuch in his harem was implied to be treated as a woman as a result (re: fucked like a woman). theres also some theories that Puyi was in love with his 'eunuch', and they lived together after the revolution in China (was told this by chinese friends) and might have been a big part of why he was spared (no progeny)
The big thing with being a eunuch is that the idea was that because you gave up having direct descendents, it meant that you could more easily be trusted to run bureaucratic tasks for the good of the royal line. Whether or not this works is one of those oft-debated ancient and medieval political science topics of the time (particularly in China) with most petty lords that would lead revolts against kings/emperors blaming the bad government on the influence of eunuchs. If this was true or not is unknown, but the ones that won were the victors so their histories survive.
As far as I am aware though, you are correct that the only culture that believed eunuchs to be 'sexless' is the Catholic Church.
Interesting, I didn't know the term had such a wide definition. I remembered it in the context of the Ottoman sultans, who used eunuchs to guard their harems.
The wider definition is becoming more common with recent scholarship, a lot of historians ommitted source materials on eunuchs demanding to be referred as women or otherwise, and some of this source material is even first person due to many eunuchs being clergy and literate
There's a lot of work being done on the restudy of history without chauvinism these days
Bear in mind this is kind of underselling the whole deal. If you live in a patrimonial state then the royal household is equivalent to the center of government. Relatives and close aides to the monarch are all influential, often serve in the administration and have the opportunity to accrue real power. Eunuchs guarding the harem means they are individuals who have access to all wings of the royal household, which is why they didn't just serve as guards or messengers or aides. Since the Ottomans often bought Eunuchs in the red sea, the chief black eunuchs were often in charge of religious endowments or vaqifs. Which means that they were in charge of some of the most important financial instruments in the empire.
It's like if the king of norway racistly believed that black ethiopians were the most courtly of peoples and bought an eunuch to administer a part of the country's sovereign wealth fund.
that vast majority of eunuchs were forcibly made eunuchs, and this is true across different cultures. Eunuchs would usually be servants or slaves who had been castrated to make them less threatening servants of a royal court where physical access to the ruler could wield great influence.