People resort to stochastic violence when they can no longer handle the cognitive dissonance between fantasy and reality. And here you want to reinforce their narcissistic fantasies and let them disappear even further up their own assholes.
They already have fantasies sold to them by the media and their family (where do you think incels come from?). Better to unleash on a robot than the inevitable blow-up on a human partner imo.
Learning to interact with a human would make the proto-incel less likely to unleash on anyone. Fostering anti-social behaviors with pliant bots will just create more incels that will unleash on random starbucks baristas and strangers.
Ignoring that this is only ever going to be used to sell erection pills, I disagree. The sort of people who would use a product like this are only going to use it to practice cruelty. They are still going to leave their houses and interact with the world, only they will have their AI waifu at home waiting to validate all of their bigoted views. I imagine a person like that would immediately begin to use their robots as a point of comparison for real women, fomenting their hate.
As socialists, I don't think the goal should ever be to discourage people from interacting with one another, but a tool like this could be used to recondition incel-types in the right set of circumstances. Under capitalism, however, I don't see how it could provide us with any value.
Is that who you think the target demographic is? Huh, weird that they'd build such an expensive luxury product just to market it toward such a historically low-income demographic! I guess they probably should have done their market research.
(Unless you work in Silicon Valley, the machine is not going to fuck you.)
Huh, weird that they’d build such an expensive luxury product just to market it toward such a historically low-income demographic!
Well, I mean I typically end up making less than 20K a year (and that's a pretty good year) on account of intermittent employment; and I live in the rural midwest so that's both more & less than you'd think. I have relatively very low expenses though, because I live with my mom, don't have kids, don't go anywhere, and don't own shit; and so I could totally buy a RealDoll if I fuckin' wanted to. Which I don't, because it'd be a lot of work to maintain, I don't know where I'd put it or use it that things wouldn't be weird; and frankly I'd like to think better of myself than that.
The point here is that you're very obviously trading on stereotypes about socially-alienated people, especially socially-alienated men, being necessarily pathologically violent. Stereotypes which are extremely commonly applied to people with Autism & Schizophrenia (i.e. myself & @MeltyBloodPlayer ), on account of the fact that we are almost always highly (and generally I'd argue, deliberately) socially isolated.
Edit: And actually I wanna make clear something that I just realized could be a point of contention or misunderstanding; The Robot is Bad okay. And I believe that MBP is undervaluing themselves in regards to what kind of social horizon they ought to be asking to be included in. You're probably right that the intended market demographic for the horny phone-sex-bot is not necessarily neurodivergent people, but rather whatever gross bastard is able & willing to drop the cash on it. The point here is that you are conflating gross bastards with the socially alienated, which is not necessarily the same thing.
That's fair, I can see how it reads that way. I'm a socially-alienated neurodivergent individual, too, so that definitely wasn't my intention. To clarify, I was talking about a specific subset of petite bourgeois persons who believes their antisocial behaviors and bigotry towards women are justified by their social standing.
I never said anything about mental illness or social isolation - those words were put in my mouth, which is why my initial reaction was a little harsh. However, I can see where @MeltyBloodPlayer was coming from and I truly apologize if I've offended either one of you.
Lastly, I think you nailed it with your comment further down the thread:
It’s the exact opposite of trying to build a society in which neurodivergent people can actually be accepted by & live fruitful lives alongside their neurotypical peers.
Even if the target demographic were socially-alienated, neurodivergent people, I don't think this sort of technology would be a good thing. If it were used as a learning aid to help people develop healthy social skills then that would be great, but in capitalist hellworld it would just be a skinner box filled with cum. We all deserve better than a skinner box filled with cum. We deserve actual human connections.
The unfortunate reality is that the demographics that would sensibly benefit from something like that are also pretty unlikely to have the "brand new car purchased in full" type of money burning a hole in their expendable income. Currently existing sex dolls that are just lumps of silicone over some PVC pipes and action figure joints cost something like $6000 and a functional AI powered sexbot will accordingly cost many times that much. It's gonna be a plaything for the upper middle class at best.
However, chatbot friends and AI "long distance relationships" probably will be affordable to the working class.
The unfortunate reality is that the demographics that would sensibly benefit from something like that
The thing is that it's not actually beneficial anyways. It's the exact opposite of trying to build a society in which neurodivergent people can actually be accepted by & live fruitful lives alongside their neurotypical peers. It's deliberate socio-technological sequestration.
Edit: Or rather, it wouldn't be even if it were made for the purpose we're imagining here..
However, chatbot friends and AI “long distance relationships” probably will be affordable to the working class.
These things don't help people. They are destroying communities and further driving people into isolation.
Every single person is going to end up living in a box that they never exit from, people will argue "well people have everything they need while those driven to depression by this isolation literally end themselves because of it". Instead of solving things by building robust communities with people that care for one another and provide for one another the love and support of a community none of those things will exist because manipulative AIs will instead perform those kinds of "mental health" functions for people in isolated home prisons where all your items are delivered to you and no social interaction is required with a human being therefore no communities exist.
This is at its worst for the disabled who can not escape their box even if they want to. And nobody will listen to their complaints about it because everything is deemed as "solved" by these answers in society.
All these kinds of "solutions" is slowly creating a literal hellworld of isolation.
Agreed. It's a trap that just offloads people from society and into a Skinner box. But the user I responded to refuses to see things from that perspective, so I find it easier to just play things through the lens of "let's say you're right. Here's why even from your own perspective, you're still wrong."
I think there's merit to both of these points however, this technology will be shit under capitalism and will ruin many many lives. It's not (often) going to be used to help people who suffer it's going to create them in order for them to buy whatever gacha game pack is on sale that day. You're not wrong that it could be beneficial to a lot of people and that if it can then that would be great. But how many of those people are in that position because of our shit society? how might further creating barriers between effective social communication break our ability to organize and change things?
I would not be surprised if fake companionship from machines stopped people from seeking to connect with actual humans though. While also being extremely unhealthy
Isn't social interaction the only way to build solidarity? Everyone deserves some alone time don't get me wrong, but I think the bigger issue today is too much of that.
Social interaction is based on mutual consent. The type of people who want a robot AI waifu are likely to be the type of people who cause issues for others.
It's like when a certain type of person - usually a middle aged man - complains about people being "antisocial" when they're "on their phones on social media". Nah dude, they aren't antisocial, they don't want to socialize with you.
Yeah this just isn't true. Old men complaining about their kids using their phone too much is not the crux of the issue. A large amount of people feeling disconnected from their communities and it causes them real pain. It's not that everyone is happy and choosing to keep to themselves.
Interesting! I know this is a complicated question, but what does socialism look like without social interaction? I'm not trying to put you on the defensive, I'm just having a hard time grasping the concept.
That would certainly make the working class, which is currently in emotional fucking shambles, more resilient to the conditions of modern capitalism.
No it wouldn't, it would make them completely dependent on a continuing Capitalist mode of production in order to be able to get their emotional needs met. Literally the exact opposite of what what is being proposed in this thread has to happen for socialist organization to even be viable.
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Don't really see the issue there - every person obsessed with Siri is one less creep stalking a real person.
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this sounds like the same logic incels think in
People resort to stochastic violence when they can no longer handle the cognitive dissonance between fantasy and reality. And here you want to reinforce their narcissistic fantasies and let them disappear even further up their own assholes.
They already have fantasies sold to them by the media and their family (where do you think incels come from?). Better to unleash on a robot than the inevitable blow-up on a human partner imo.
Learning to interact with a human would make the proto-incel less likely to unleash on anyone. Fostering anti-social behaviors with pliant bots will just create more incels that will unleash on random starbucks baristas and strangers.
:100-com:
Ignoring that this is only ever going to be used to sell erection pills, I disagree. The sort of people who would use a product like this are only going to use it to practice cruelty. They are still going to leave their houses and interact with the world, only they will have their AI waifu at home waiting to validate all of their bigoted views. I imagine a person like that would immediately begin to use their robots as a point of comparison for real women, fomenting their hate.
As socialists, I don't think the goal should ever be to discourage people from interacting with one another, but a tool like this could be used to recondition incel-types in the right set of circumstances. Under capitalism, however, I don't see how it could provide us with any value.
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Is that who you think the target demographic is? Huh, weird that they'd build such an expensive luxury product just to market it toward such a historically low-income demographic! I guess they probably should have done their market research.
(Unless you work in Silicon Valley, the machine is not going to fuck you.)
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Thanks, you too!
Well, I mean I typically end up making less than 20K a year (and that's a pretty good year) on account of intermittent employment; and I live in the rural midwest so that's both more & less than you'd think. I have relatively very low expenses though, because I live with my mom, don't have kids, don't go anywhere, and don't own shit; and so I could totally buy a RealDoll if I fuckin' wanted to. Which I don't, because it'd be a lot of work to maintain, I don't know where I'd put it or use it that things wouldn't be weird; and frankly I'd like to think better of myself than that.
The point here is that you're very obviously trading on stereotypes about socially-alienated people, especially socially-alienated men, being necessarily pathologically violent. Stereotypes which are extremely commonly applied to people with Autism & Schizophrenia (i.e. myself & @MeltyBloodPlayer ), on account of the fact that we are almost always highly (and generally I'd argue, deliberately) socially isolated.
Edit: And actually I wanna make clear something that I just realized could be a point of contention or misunderstanding; The Robot is Bad okay. And I believe that MBP is undervaluing themselves in regards to what kind of social horizon they ought to be asking to be included in. You're probably right that the intended market demographic for the horny phone-sex-bot is not necessarily neurodivergent people, but rather whatever gross bastard is able & willing to drop the cash on it. The point here is that you are conflating gross bastards with the socially alienated, which is not necessarily the same thing.
That's fair, I can see how it reads that way. I'm a socially-alienated neurodivergent individual, too, so that definitely wasn't my intention. To clarify, I was talking about a specific subset of petite bourgeois persons who believes their antisocial behaviors and bigotry towards women are justified by their social standing.
I never said anything about mental illness or social isolation - those words were put in my mouth, which is why my initial reaction was a little harsh. However, I can see where @MeltyBloodPlayer was coming from and I truly apologize if I've offended either one of you.
Lastly, I think you nailed it with your comment further down the thread:
Even if the target demographic were socially-alienated, neurodivergent people, I don't think this sort of technology would be a good thing. If it were used as a learning aid to help people develop healthy social skills then that would be great, but in capitalist hellworld it would just be a skinner box filled with cum. We all deserve better than a skinner box filled with cum. We deserve actual human connections.
The unfortunate reality is that the demographics that would sensibly benefit from something like that are also pretty unlikely to have the "brand new car purchased in full" type of money burning a hole in their expendable income. Currently existing sex dolls that are just lumps of silicone over some PVC pipes and action figure joints cost something like $6000 and a functional AI powered sexbot will accordingly cost many times that much. It's gonna be a plaything for the upper middle class at best.
However, chatbot friends and AI "long distance relationships" probably will be affordable to the working class.
The thing is that it's not actually beneficial anyways. It's the exact opposite of trying to build a society in which neurodivergent people can actually be accepted by & live fruitful lives alongside their neurotypical peers. It's deliberate socio-technological sequestration.
Edit: Or rather, it wouldn't be even if it were made for the purpose we're imagining here..
Agreed 100%, but I find it useful when explaining things to people to basically say here's why assuming they're right, it's still impossible.
These things don't help people. They are destroying communities and further driving people into isolation.
Every single person is going to end up living in a box that they never exit from, people will argue "well people have everything they need while those driven to depression by this isolation literally end themselves because of it". Instead of solving things by building robust communities with people that care for one another and provide for one another the love and support of a community none of those things will exist because manipulative AIs will instead perform those kinds of "mental health" functions for people in isolated home prisons where all your items are delivered to you and no social interaction is required with a human being therefore no communities exist.
This is at its worst for the disabled who can not escape their box even if they want to. And nobody will listen to their complaints about it because everything is deemed as "solved" by these answers in society.
All these kinds of "solutions" is slowly creating a literal hellworld of isolation.
Agreed. It's a trap that just offloads people from society and into a Skinner box. But the user I responded to refuses to see things from that perspective, so I find it easier to just play things through the lens of "let's say you're right. Here's why even from your own perspective, you're still wrong."
I think there's merit to both of these points however, this technology will be shit under capitalism and will ruin many many lives. It's not (often) going to be used to help people who suffer it's going to create them in order for them to buy whatever gacha game pack is on sale that day. You're not wrong that it could be beneficial to a lot of people and that if it can then that would be great. But how many of those people are in that position because of our shit society? how might further creating barriers between effective social communication break our ability to organize and change things?
I would not be surprised if fake companionship from machines stopped people from seeking to connect with actual humans though. While also being extremely unhealthy
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100% disagree with this perspective, but I suppose that's why we differ.
Isn't social interaction the only way to build solidarity? Everyone deserves some alone time don't get me wrong, but I think the bigger issue today is too much of that.
Social interaction is based on mutual consent. The type of people who want a robot AI waifu are likely to be the type of people who cause issues for others.
It's like when a certain type of person - usually a middle aged man - complains about people being "antisocial" when they're "on their phones on social media". Nah dude, they aren't antisocial, they don't want to socialize with you.
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Yeah this just isn't true. Old men complaining about their kids using their phone too much is not the crux of the issue. A large amount of people feeling disconnected from their communities and it causes them real pain. It's not that everyone is happy and choosing to keep to themselves.
Interesting! I know this is a complicated question, but what does socialism look like without social interaction? I'm not trying to put you on the defensive, I'm just having a hard time grasping the concept.
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No it wouldn't, it would make them completely dependent on a continuing Capitalist mode of production in order to be able to get their emotional needs met. Literally the exact opposite of what what is being proposed in this thread has to happen for socialist organization to even be viable.
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Exactly, same deal as when people insist that they need to be served treats by a human being at a restaurant rather than using a kiosk.