It really depends on how you define "intelligence". If they have the ability to receive and process information from their environment and respond I'd call that "intelligence". All living things possess some degree of intelligence. Cephalopods lack a centralized "brain", having multiple distributed "lobes" throughout their bodies, but I doubt anyone would dispute that octopi are "intelligent."
The ability to receive and process information can even be done by non-living things, particularly since information here is environmental stimulus and processing is just responding to one stimulus differently from another. A crystal can do that as it grows.
There's definitely a more familiar dynamic at play that we appreciate, where a living thing creates for itself complex and dynamic responses and spits out signals of its own, but single cells do this all the time. Viruses do as well. I personally wouldn't categorize a bacterium stochastically swimming towards a chemical gradient using a couple-step chemical process to be intelligence.
As we all know, the true mark of intelligence is being an articulate primate with a keyboard who spends their weekend deciding which other creatures are worthy of being called intelligent :kubrick-stare:
It’s not really about “worthiness”. I’m skeptical of the idea because assholes weaponize this idea to justify eating clearly sentient, intelligent animals. Plants and fungi aren’t the same, they don’t have an equivalent to a central nervous system, and all these cynics are out here talking about well maybe they are sentient too based on these lukewarm studies, so I guess it doesn’t matter what we eat. No motherfucker, go vegan.
I never said they were. I never even brought up factory farming, I think all meat eating is wrong. All I was talking about was how people will justify eating meat because they say plants/fungi are sentient too, and I hate that asinine bullshit.
I see your point and I think you’re picking up on a cognitive dissonance that they tone out. To them it’s more like “well every edible thing is sentient, so I don’t need an ethical framework to decide what to eat” it’s wrong as you point out but also a convenient worldview for someone to justify eating meat.
Ah I see. So it’s kind of like what people do with “no ethical consumption under capitalism”? My understanding is that you can’t expect purity, but focusing on making it more ethical over time is something an individual should do. Western leftists seem to want it to mean, “don’t feel bad about your lifestyle being based on exploitation of the global south”, which is nonsense
Yeah exactly. And I’m not about purity either, I think there are times when eating meat is ethically valid, especially in our current food system, people with eating disorders or people in poverty with no better options for example. I’m a little skeptical of “making it more ethical over time”, I feel we need revolutionary change now, but I still do and promote going vegan on an individual level of course. I see a lot of parallels with veganism and Marxism, and that we clearly need to put a lot more effort into organizing politically and not just making individual reforms. And for both, it’s going to be tough sledding. I’m guilty of acting mostly individually myself, the capitalist system is really really good at disenfranchising activism. Sorry for the ramble, I’m mostly typing it out to as a commitment to myself to be better.
Nah that’s super spot on and I appreciate the clarification. I definitely meant the incrementalism from an individual perspective. Systemically, it’s revolution now. Organizing is…. A lot. I just found a community supported agriculture group who keeps everything vegan and I’m considering putting in some time, but I’ve also got other duties to attend to. Who knows?
i mean at a certain point you gotta make an obvious comparison and define limits. if ants or lowly insects are bad to eat, is a fungus on the same level of intelligence as one?
plants for sure do take in and process information, and perform some computations, but yeah i think the key thing is whether or not their way of processing information results in an experience of being alive, and i don't think it does. while i think the set of possible experiences is much more diverse than the subset that looks like our own and has familiar elements like "a sense of self" or "a sense of the present moment" i still find it unlikely that plants experience much of anything. i just don't think they have enough interconnectivity. maybe a mycorrhizal network joining a bunch of plants would get there.
It’s an important distinction and I’m very skeptical of anyone trying to put plants/fungi in the intelligent category because it’s a common move for anti-vegans to justify carnism.
It really depends on how you define "intelligence". If they have the ability to receive and process information from their environment and respond I'd call that "intelligence". All living things possess some degree of intelligence. Cephalopods lack a centralized "brain", having multiple distributed "lobes" throughout their bodies, but I doubt anyone would dispute that octopi are "intelligent."
The ability to receive and process information can even be done by non-living things, particularly since information here is environmental stimulus and processing is just responding to one stimulus differently from another. A crystal can do that as it grows.
There's definitely a more familiar dynamic at play that we appreciate, where a living thing creates for itself complex and dynamic responses and spits out signals of its own, but single cells do this all the time. Viruses do as well. I personally wouldn't categorize a bacterium stochastically swimming towards a chemical gradient using a couple-step chemical process to be intelligence.
As we all know, the true mark of intelligence is being an articulate primate with a keyboard who spends their weekend deciding which other creatures are worthy of being called intelligent :kubrick-stare:
It’s not really about “worthiness”. I’m skeptical of the idea because assholes weaponize this idea to justify eating clearly sentient, intelligent animals. Plants and fungi aren’t the same, they don’t have an equivalent to a central nervous system, and all these cynics are out here talking about well maybe they are sentient too based on these lukewarm studies, so I guess it doesn’t matter what we eat. No motherfucker, go vegan.
i wasn't being serious, hence the giant smug shapiro emoji at the end.
I believe that all these things are sentient and also factory farming is bad. How are those beliefs incompatible?
I never said they were. I never even brought up factory farming, I think all meat eating is wrong. All I was talking about was how people will justify eating meat because they say plants/fungi are sentient too, and I hate that asinine bullshit.
That doesn’t make any sense as am objection to veganism. Expanding the scope of harm means you’re allowed to do more harm???
I see your point and I think you’re picking up on a cognitive dissonance that they tone out. To them it’s more like “well every edible thing is sentient, so I don’t need an ethical framework to decide what to eat” it’s wrong as you point out but also a convenient worldview for someone to justify eating meat.
Ah I see. So it’s kind of like what people do with “no ethical consumption under capitalism”? My understanding is that you can’t expect purity, but focusing on making it more ethical over time is something an individual should do. Western leftists seem to want it to mean, “don’t feel bad about your lifestyle being based on exploitation of the global south”, which is nonsense
Yeah exactly. And I’m not about purity either, I think there are times when eating meat is ethically valid, especially in our current food system, people with eating disorders or people in poverty with no better options for example. I’m a little skeptical of “making it more ethical over time”, I feel we need revolutionary change now, but I still do and promote going vegan on an individual level of course. I see a lot of parallels with veganism and Marxism, and that we clearly need to put a lot more effort into organizing politically and not just making individual reforms. And for both, it’s going to be tough sledding. I’m guilty of acting mostly individually myself, the capitalist system is really really good at disenfranchising activism. Sorry for the ramble, I’m mostly typing it out to as a commitment to myself to be better.
Nah that’s super spot on and I appreciate the clarification. I definitely meant the incrementalism from an individual perspective. Systemically, it’s revolution now. Organizing is…. A lot. I just found a community supported agriculture group who keeps everything vegan and I’m considering putting in some time, but I’ve also got other duties to attend to. Who knows?
:downbear:
?
It really depends on how you define "process". Plants arguably receive and process information. I wouldn't call that intelligence though.
i mean at a certain point you gotta make an obvious comparison and define limits. if ants or lowly insects are bad to eat, is a fungus on the same level of intelligence as one?
They aren't bad to eat, besides maybe not tasting great.
some feel more strongly about it
ive eaten locusts before and quite enjoyed it
plants for sure do take in and process information, and perform some computations, but yeah i think the key thing is whether or not their way of processing information results in an experience of being alive, and i don't think it does. while i think the set of possible experiences is much more diverse than the subset that looks like our own and has familiar elements like "a sense of self" or "a sense of the present moment" i still find it unlikely that plants experience much of anything. i just don't think they have enough interconnectivity. maybe a mycorrhizal network joining a bunch of plants would get there.
Yes, but insects might not either. It's a super fuzzy line that could be drawn just about anywhere.
yeah i think it's a continuous multidimensional spectrum
It’s an important distinction and I’m very skeptical of anyone trying to put plants/fungi in the intelligent category because it’s a common move for anti-vegans to justify carnism.