Humans have no issue with identifying cause and effect in everything but their own heads. To believe we are immune or that it is "unknown" is akin to believing in the soul imo. We aren't special. Just another part of the universe.
Being part of the universe doesn't change the metaphysical question, it just rejects a historical religious framing of it. Souls, a ghost in the machine, etc. Most people believe in the latter and have for a very long time, so it's understandable that this is the usual object of the critique, but it doesn't exhaust the question.
I'm just pointing out various inconsistencies and errors in thought. Whether I have a personal position that is super smart or the worst thing you've ever heard wouldn't change the fact that these analyses or claims have the faults I've pointed out.
So you're debating 19th century German philosophers on behalf of a 19th century german philosopher. All I mean by determinism is that free will doesn't exist.
Marx is a 19th century German philosopher, though his philosophy was dead-set on building a framework for overthrowing capitalism. Diamat is weird German philosophy, it's about 80% of why it's so hard to understand in the first place.
So, philosophy nerds tend to separate determinism from free will for the purpose of asking whether they are compatible. When I see people saying free will doesn't exist, that determinism is instead what's up, and that science is saying things about the matter, I interpret you're an incompatibilist that believes in a materialist determinism and an absence of free will. I see other folks in the comments making similar statements, including fatalistic ones.
You're wrong in assuming free will does exist. I'm agnostic about hard line determinism, I just use it as a stand in for the antithesis of assuming there is free will. I've said this before, but "free will" assumes a human above nature and a soul like entity. I refer you to the Lemmygrad side for what does exist if there's no free will.
The summary is pretty much correct, but I can not tell if you have held on to your initial position that compatibilism is correct. One of the first comments science cannot prove the existence of free will, but I have yet to see even a coherent philosophical argument for it.
Humans have no issue with identifying cause and effect in everything but their own heads. To believe we are immune or that it is "unknown" is akin to believing in the soul imo. We aren't special. Just another part of the universe.
Being part of the universe doesn't change the metaphysical question, it just rejects a historical religious framing of it. Souls, a ghost in the machine, etc. Most people believe in the latter and have for a very long time, so it's understandable that this is the usual object of the critique, but it doesn't exhaust the question.
Where does your materialist free will come from then? lol
Who said I had materialist free will?
I'm just pointing out various inconsistencies and errors in thought. Whether I have a personal position that is super smart or the worst thing you've ever heard wouldn't change the fact that these analyses or claims have the faults I've pointed out.
So you're debating 19th century German philosophers on behalf of a 19th century german philosopher. All I mean by determinism is that free will doesn't exist.
Marx is a 19th century German philosopher, though his philosophy was dead-set on building a framework for overthrowing capitalism. Diamat is weird German philosophy, it's about 80% of why it's so hard to understand in the first place.
So, philosophy nerds tend to separate determinism from free will for the purpose of asking whether they are compatible. When I see people saying free will doesn't exist, that determinism is instead what's up, and that science is saying things about the matter, I interpret you're an incompatibilist that believes in a materialist determinism and an absence of free will. I see other folks in the comments making similar statements, including fatalistic ones.
So where am I going wrong?
You're wrong in assuming free will does exist. I'm agnostic about hard line determinism, I just use it as a stand in for the antithesis of assuming there is free will. I've said this before, but "free will" assumes a human above nature and a soul like entity. I refer you to the Lemmygrad side for what does exist if there's no free will.
When I said, "where am I going wrong?" I was obviously referring to the summary I had just given, none of which included "I assume free will exists".
So, were am I going wrong in that summary?
The summary is pretty much correct, but I can not tell if you have held on to your initial position that compatibilism is correct. One of the first comments science cannot prove the existence of free will, but I have yet to see even a coherent philosophical argument for it.
You are incorrect about what things I've said but it's become redundant with the other threads so I'm going to stop replying to this particular chain.