Roger Waters is very dumb but dumb people tend to like him because he says some things they like. So what happens when he 'debates' an even dumber liberal on...
Roger Waters - Comfortably Numb, Bad Empanada - Confident and Dumb
It’s funny bc earlier we had the patsoc hiding behind sectarianism to defend their reactionary ideology and you’re using it as an excuse to stop criticism of people with generally chauvinist takes. We are anti-sectarian but we are more broadly pro-aes and the non-ml comrades here generally have been cool and in favor of that as well. Hell we had a Reddit style anarchist here a while back and tons of our own anarchists called them libs for their well, lib views tbh.
We’ve litigated this here before and I don’t think allowing all ideologies for some ideal of non-sectarianism is a good thing when they conflict with more important ideals like solidarity with aes and 3rd world comrades or a belief in revolutionary over reformist politics which we generally have. I wouldn’t want to see the site diluted to welcome twitter/Reddit style socialists and socdems in the name of non-sectarianism. Critiquing why those ideologies have historically and continue this day to fold or capitulate to capital is more important
I literally just want to not see the words ultra or anarkiddy on this website, I don’t expect people to change their views, there are clearly other places for that
Anarkiddie I get but ultras have literally always broadly been critiqued by virtually the whole of the left. It’s basically no different than critique liberals especially when what they’re espousing is state dept serving (indirectly or otherwise) chauvinism.
it is a short hand for being sectarian against maoists mzt hoxhaists and anti revisonists left comma anarchists specifically it is used specifically for those tendencies when people say it,
I'm confused. Are we using this to refer specifically to Deng-era ideology and up to before Xi? The way I see it discussed, Xi is held in high regard mainly as a leader and XJT is seen as a relatively small addition to MZT overall, and the only people who would claim to be MZT but specifically not XJT are weird imperial periphery neoliberals who I know exist in China but I have literally never seen in one of these online spaces.
I’m am talking about the current party, do you not know there are multiple factions in it… there are people you want to not take the course of Xi and revert to Mao era policies, it’s not just a consensus, there’s like 10 factions …
As far as I know, people concerned with implementing Mao era policies would be more accurately described as Maoists, since MZT would be more accurately described as accounting for Mao's theoretical contributions and a small portion of his policies but not really the bulk of them (and also a bit of a patina for Deng's right-deviation).
MLM groups identified as MZT before Gonzalo, it probably has more than one definition, I meant in the maoist way, but some people mean only MLM when they say maoists, it's confusing
I mean in some cases maybe, but maoists don’t exactly have the best track record and could probably do with some critiquing.
Mzt is generally pretty popular here so it’s definitely not that
And honestly calling everyone that doesn’t follow a prescribed ultra doctrine “revisionist” (i.e. actually responding to the material conditions which is a fundamental part of Marxism) and yourself anti-revisionist is kinda sectarian in itself lol
I for one have never called anyone here or anyone else not here a revionist or tankie or whatever other dunk/own, or even wanted to, it’s really not that hard
Again I don’t think tolerating anti-aes and chauvinist views is worth the moral superiority of being “anti-sectarian” this is basically the tolerance paradox for socialists. All the solidarity to socialists of all stripes but I don’t think allowing chauvinist elements into the broad left is good and they should be critiqued and spoken out against
You have to agree with the premise it was chauvinist, and that is for sure up for debate, unless you’re the authority on what is chauvinist, if the other posters above decided on that this would literally just be GZD
Yeah I believe this is what the kids call “having a take.” Chauvinism in general is complicated subject and obviously there’s gonna be different pov. Chasing some kind of universal agreeance is fruitless and kinda lib tbh and gutless fence sitting. Generally it’s taken to mean supporting western imperialist nations bc of taking their view on something as the default. And that is generally to me, not worth allowing in the space.
We can have a lot of arguments about whether you and I are correct but that we can debate it doesn’t justify tolerating it. We can debate all kinds of shit that we generally take to be bad. Should we allow pro-landlord takes here bc whether it’s bad or good is “up for debate”? Certainly you and I aren’t the arbiter of what is universally true in any circumstance.
I agree, I just think tossing arounds ultras to people the left of you you don’t like is just as childish and dumb as libs throwing around tankies to people to the left of them they don’t like and should be pushed back on
I think there’s a lot of supposition in whether or not that counts as “to the left of you.” If you end up supporting imperialist nations against aes idk how “left” that really is and I think that’s why it worthy of critique
That said I mean we’re gonna call them something right? Like whatever we name them is gonna be interpreted as a pejorative when we consistently use it to critique them. You could be having this exact convo with me but change out the word for chauvinist for example. I really don’t see the point in running so much defense for a group especially if you agree that chauvinist takes are bad.
People are to the left and right of each other and that's okay most people would agree left to right mao, xi, deng and that would not cause debate so why would people using a word to make fun of someone who prefers mao politics over xi politics not punching left ...
there really isn't a debate that using the word ultra would be targeting someone to the left of you, leftism does not automatically equate to good or practical or whatever ascribed values, but it is still more to the left
you do not have not support imperialist nations, by not critically supporting x country, you can firmly oppose western invention and imperialism and don't have to give props to a state that is in many other ways abhorrent ...
Lol I mean at this level that’s just cringe polcomp type shit. Politics does t exist on a flat plane. It’s really just an ultra view to say ok actually anything that isn’t particularly my interpretation of Marx is to the right of me. Everyone else was busy building something, incl non marxists to be honest. People exist all over the place wrt to interpretations of socialism, liberalism, whatever
But whatever you consider yourself, and wherever you see yourself on an imaginary plane, if your ideology consistently leads you to side with imperialist nations (sometimes no for some but generally often) and keeps you from seeing a country that lifted countless people out of poverty, has been basically the sole country to make the general gains against poverty in the last half decade and if you take them out it completely falls apart, is the only country that consistently holds capital accountable to the law and not above it, amongst millions of other advancements, or take the responses to conditions placed upon them by the imperialist west in dprk and other countries cases as universally bad and exempts them from being socialist bc you’re too caught up in believing imperialist nonsense, than that ideology should be unwelcome
Again I’m fine with literally all stripes of socialism. I don’t agree with my anarchists comrades on stuff but I think there’s utility in their views. I specifically don’t think chauvinism and the inherent defeatism of ultras on one end, or the radlib western leftists that won’t support anything outside of the imperial core on the other is worth having in and is frankly detrimental to the movement. Tbh it shouldn’t be a big bar to cross for leftists
I never said I didn't critically support China ... you inferred that, I literally would just prefer different kinds of leadership and those people do exist ... they are just more marginal than the ones you support so you are by default right bc you agree more closely with the faction in power, would you accuse a maoist in the government in China as not supporting China bc they don't agree with XJP on a theoretical basis, I guess they're just a chauvinist defeatist ultra radlib western leftist
I’m not talking about you or anything about your ideology specifically at all, I’m talking about ultras and “radlibs” getting called ultras for broadly not supporting aes and often falling into the trap of supporting imperialist nations bc that’s what we’ve been talking about up to this point.
fair enough, it's inherently sectarian though, virtually everyone who is not just a textbook ML, is basically an ultra in that definition especially if you don't inclide the "often" part bc in this community that almost never happens here, I'm sure it does on twitter and reddit
A lot of our non-ml comrades seem to handle it fine. :shrug-outta-hecks: and just bc it’s common to fall for people in imperial nations to fall for imperialist dogma doesn’t mean it can’t be regarded as a bad thing.
It’s honestly to be expected that that should be the case, that’s why it has to be critiqued and talked about. Most white People aren’t gonna understand intuitively how their white identity privileges them in societies built on white supremacy, you generally have to have a dialogue about it. I think it functions similarly, we are by default gonna probably side with countries we’re familiar with especially over ones that we grew up being taught to revile that do all these awful things allegedly. That’s the self sustaining propaganda of imperialism at work.
I can’t speak for everyone but to me, ultimately it’s just a good line for building solidarity with aes countries and looking to models that are working in the real world we could take and apply to our own conditions. We have to have some values on things, we’re all choosing what not to have and what to have. We generally would agree here that wage theft by capitalists is bad for example but might get some push back in spaces where they don’t agree.
I don’t think these are inherently bad takes to have spread through leftist movements in the west, would go a long way to undoing and combatting imperialist brainworms, and I’ve seen plenty of non-ml comrades incorporate them into their thinking so I don’t think that “seek to be non chauvinist, and critically support aes” is inherently at odds with non-mls or is a wholly ml-only view to take.
can’t speak for everyone but to me, ultimately it’s just a good line for building solidarity with aes countries and looking to models that are working in the real world we could take and apply to our own conditions. We have to have some values on things, we’re all choosing what not to have and what to have. We generally would agree here that wage theft by capitalists is bad for example but might get some push back in spaces where they don’t agree.
it is a good thing
I think that is well and good, I don't think ML in this vein of thought are bad or wrong, I think they are comrades and it's just a small difference of opinion, and I just think it would be nice to not just fire off a term people use regularly on other sectarian forums as a way to dismiss things you don't agree with in a complete bad faith way, like 99% of the usage of ultras is here
telling a user who has been here since the beginning of the site that they would be happier on some other forum while you are being collectively dunked on by dozens of other old heads is a real move for a two month old account
It’s funny bc earlier we had the patsoc hiding behind sectarianism to defend their reactionary ideology and you’re using it as an excuse to stop criticism of people with generally chauvinist takes. We are anti-sectarian but we are more broadly pro-aes and the non-ml comrades here generally have been cool and in favor of that as well. Hell we had a Reddit style anarchist here a while back and tons of our own anarchists called them libs for their well, lib views tbh.
We’ve litigated this here before and I don’t think allowing all ideologies for some ideal of non-sectarianism is a good thing when they conflict with more important ideals like solidarity with aes and 3rd world comrades or a belief in revolutionary over reformist politics which we generally have. I wouldn’t want to see the site diluted to welcome twitter/Reddit style socialists and socdems in the name of non-sectarianism. Critiquing why those ideologies have historically and continue this day to fold or capitulate to capital is more important
I literally just want to not see the words ultra or anarkiddy on this website, I don’t expect people to change their views, there are clearly other places for that
Anarkiddie I get but ultras have literally always broadly been critiqued by virtually the whole of the left. It’s basically no different than critique liberals especially when what they’re espousing is state dept serving (indirectly or otherwise) chauvinism.
it is a short hand for being sectarian against maoists mzt hoxhaists and anti revisonists left comma anarchists specifically it is used specifically for those tendencies when people say it,
Not at all. The PRC is (or claims to be, since you might contest it) MZT.
I meant mzt as in the ideology in the Cpc you can call traditional marxists as opposed to innovative marxism or XJP thought
I'm confused. Are we using this to refer specifically to Deng-era ideology and up to before Xi? The way I see it discussed, Xi is held in high regard mainly as a leader and XJT is seen as a relatively small addition to MZT overall, and the only people who would claim to be MZT but specifically not XJT are weird imperial periphery neoliberals who I know exist in China but I have literally never seen in one of these online spaces.
I’m am talking about the current party, do you not know there are multiple factions in it… there are people you want to not take the course of Xi and revert to Mao era policies, it’s not just a consensus, there’s like 10 factions …
As far as I know, people concerned with implementing Mao era policies would be more accurately described as Maoists, since MZT would be more accurately described as accounting for Mao's theoretical contributions and a small portion of his policies but not really the bulk of them (and also a bit of a patina for Deng's right-deviation).
MLM groups identified as MZT before Gonzalo, it probably has more than one definition, I meant in the maoist way, but some people mean only MLM when they say maoists, it's confusing
Alright, fair enough
I mean in some cases maybe, but maoists don’t exactly have the best track record and could probably do with some critiquing.
Mzt is generally pretty popular here so it’s definitely not that
And honestly calling everyone that doesn’t follow a prescribed ultra doctrine “revisionist” (i.e. actually responding to the material conditions which is a fundamental part of Marxism) and yourself anti-revisionist is kinda sectarian in itself lol
I for one have never called anyone here or anyone else not here a revionist or tankie or whatever other dunk/own, or even wanted to, it’s really not that hard
Again I don’t think tolerating anti-aes and chauvinist views is worth the moral superiority of being “anti-sectarian” this is basically the tolerance paradox for socialists. All the solidarity to socialists of all stripes but I don’t think allowing chauvinist elements into the broad left is good and they should be critiqued and spoken out against
You have to agree with the premise it was chauvinist, and that is for sure up for debate, unless you’re the authority on what is chauvinist, if the other posters above decided on that this would literally just be GZD
didn’t critically support chauvinist
didn’t call China socialist chauvinist
etc etc
Yeah I believe this is what the kids call “having a take.” Chauvinism in general is complicated subject and obviously there’s gonna be different pov. Chasing some kind of universal agreeance is fruitless and kinda lib tbh and gutless fence sitting. Generally it’s taken to mean supporting western imperialist nations bc of taking their view on something as the default. And that is generally to me, not worth allowing in the space.
We can have a lot of arguments about whether you and I are correct but that we can debate it doesn’t justify tolerating it. We can debate all kinds of shit that we generally take to be bad. Should we allow pro-landlord takes here bc whether it’s bad or good is “up for debate”? Certainly you and I aren’t the arbiter of what is universally true in any circumstance.
I agree, I just think tossing arounds ultras to people the left of you you don’t like is just as childish and dumb as libs throwing around tankies to people to the left of them they don’t like and should be pushed back on
I think there’s a lot of supposition in whether or not that counts as “to the left of you.” If you end up supporting imperialist nations against aes idk how “left” that really is and I think that’s why it worthy of critique
That said I mean we’re gonna call them something right? Like whatever we name them is gonna be interpreted as a pejorative when we consistently use it to critique them. You could be having this exact convo with me but change out the word for chauvinist for example. I really don’t see the point in running so much defense for a group especially if you agree that chauvinist takes are bad.
People are to the left and right of each other and that's okay most people would agree left to right mao, xi, deng and that would not cause debate so why would people using a word to make fun of someone who prefers mao politics over xi politics not punching left ... there really isn't a debate that using the word ultra would be targeting someone to the left of you, leftism does not automatically equate to good or practical or whatever ascribed values, but it is still more to the left
you do not have not support imperialist nations, by not critically supporting x country, you can firmly oppose western invention and imperialism and don't have to give props to a state that is in many other ways abhorrent ...
Lol I mean at this level that’s just cringe polcomp type shit. Politics does t exist on a flat plane. It’s really just an ultra view to say ok actually anything that isn’t particularly my interpretation of Marx is to the right of me. Everyone else was busy building something, incl non marxists to be honest. People exist all over the place wrt to interpretations of socialism, liberalism, whatever
But whatever you consider yourself, and wherever you see yourself on an imaginary plane, if your ideology consistently leads you to side with imperialist nations (sometimes no for some but generally often) and keeps you from seeing a country that lifted countless people out of poverty, has been basically the sole country to make the general gains against poverty in the last half decade and if you take them out it completely falls apart, is the only country that consistently holds capital accountable to the law and not above it, amongst millions of other advancements, or take the responses to conditions placed upon them by the imperialist west in dprk and other countries cases as universally bad and exempts them from being socialist bc you’re too caught up in believing imperialist nonsense, than that ideology should be unwelcome
CW hostile, but I also had no clue what they were saying, I'm sorry
???
Ultras bad
CW hostile, I'm sorry
that's okay for you to believe, I think you would be happier in a place with less diversity of opinion
Again I’m fine with literally all stripes of socialism. I don’t agree with my anarchists comrades on stuff but I think there’s utility in their views. I specifically don’t think chauvinism and the inherent defeatism of ultras on one end, or the radlib western leftists that won’t support anything outside of the imperial core on the other is worth having in and is frankly detrimental to the movement. Tbh it shouldn’t be a big bar to cross for leftists
CW midly hostile, I'm sorry
I never said I didn't critically support China ... you inferred that, I literally would just prefer different kinds of leadership and those people do exist ... they are just more marginal than the ones you support so you are by default right bc you agree more closely with the faction in power, would you accuse a maoist in the government in China as not supporting China bc they don't agree with XJP on a theoretical basis, I guess they're just a chauvinist defeatist ultra radlib western leftist
I’m not talking about you or anything about your ideology specifically at all, I’m talking about ultras and “radlibs” getting called ultras for broadly not supporting aes and often falling into the trap of supporting imperialist nations bc that’s what we’ve been talking about up to this point.
fair enough, it's inherently sectarian though, virtually everyone who is not just a textbook ML, is basically an ultra in that definition especially if you don't inclide the "often" part bc in this community that almost never happens here, I'm sure it does on twitter and reddit
A lot of our non-ml comrades seem to handle it fine. :shrug-outta-hecks: and just bc it’s common to fall for people in imperial nations to fall for imperialist dogma doesn’t mean it can’t be regarded as a bad thing.
It’s honestly to be expected that that should be the case, that’s why it has to be critiqued and talked about. Most white People aren’t gonna understand intuitively how their white identity privileges them in societies built on white supremacy, you generally have to have a dialogue about it. I think it functions similarly, we are by default gonna probably side with countries we’re familiar with especially over ones that we grew up being taught to revile that do all these awful things allegedly. That’s the self sustaining propaganda of imperialism at work.
I can’t speak for everyone but to me, ultimately it’s just a good line for building solidarity with aes countries and looking to models that are working in the real world we could take and apply to our own conditions. We have to have some values on things, we’re all choosing what not to have and what to have. We generally would agree here that wage theft by capitalists is bad for example but might get some push back in spaces where they don’t agree.
I don’t think these are inherently bad takes to have spread through leftist movements in the west, would go a long way to undoing and combatting imperialist brainworms, and I’ve seen plenty of non-ml comrades incorporate them into their thinking so I don’t think that “seek to be non chauvinist, and critically support aes” is inherently at odds with non-mls or is a wholly ml-only view to take.
it is a good thing
I think that is well and good, I don't think ML in this vein of thought are bad or wrong, I think they are comrades and it's just a small difference of opinion, and I just think it would be nice to not just fire off a term people use regularly on other sectarian forums as a way to dismiss things you don't agree with in a complete bad faith way, like 99% of the usage of ultras is here
telling a user who has been here since the beginning of the site that they would be happier on some other forum while you are being collectively dunked on by dozens of other old heads is a real move for a two month old account
CW hostile, I'm sorry
you are hostile and unpleasant