just saw it and was obliged to share

  • Vncredleader
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    The Czechoslovak Legion would align with American interventionists, which kinda makes the Bolshevik concerns warranted. Already Masaryk president of the national council had declared the legion to be part of the French army. Entente powers had already taken to financing them. The Soviets agreed to let them get to Vladivostok in March if they disarmed, but in May the legion refuted the terms of the agreement and revolted. Once this happened they had further direct support from the Entente and Americans, as well as support for Menshevik governments. French officers directly aiding them. They had overthrown the Bolsheviks in Vladivostok in June 1918. They did not bumble their way across the Trans-Siberian Railway, they captured cities actively. July 6th they declared Vladivostok an Allied Protectorate. The Tsar is killed on the 17th of that month.

    There is no "psychological projection" is seeing people who broke a treaty and handed cities over to your enemy and foreign powers as your enemies. There is nothing "overly politically consumed" in seeing a force that is actively killing your soldiers and taking territory as a hostile force. They DID take Yekaterinburg.

    It seems your timeline is messed up. They had gotten to Vladivostok already, and had begun to go by train west across Russia which is how they reach Yekaterinburg. Based on another comment you made it seems you are confusing the initial reaching of Vladivostok and conflating it with the one in 1920. Those are different events. Don't accuse others of projection when you got the series of events wrong

    • Presents [none/use name]
      ·
      2 years ago

      The Czechoslovak Legion would align with American interventionists

      U kidding me? All they wanted was to get the hell out of Russia. That's why they fought their way over the entirety of Russia, all the way to Vladivostok.

      The Soviets agreed to let them get to Vladivostok in March if they disarmed, but in May the legion refuted the terms of the agreement and revolted.

      They would have been slaughtered if they had laid down their arms.

      They were used as a tool of the Entente powers until they wised up. The Allied governments were willing to fight to the last Czech.

      • Vncredleader
        ·
        2 years ago

        They got to Vladivostok already. Again you are flat out crushing the timeline down for an argument. They fucking captured the city in question at the end of June 1918. They then fought their way back the _other way, capturing Yekaterinburg. They acted as an allied army. July 6th when they declared Vladivostok an Allied protectorate, Wilson ordered US intervention and called for 12,000 Japanese troops to land there to support them, which Japan would.

        The head of the National Council Masaryk said this on July 27th, 10 days after the Tsar was killed (though not knowing that had occurred)

        The Czecho-Slovak Army is one of the allied armies, and it is as much under the orders of the Versailles War Council as the French or American Army. No doubt the Czecho-Slovak boys in Russia are anxious to avoid participation in a possible civil war in Russia, but they realize at the same time that by staying where they are they may be able to render far greater services, both to Russia and the Allied cause, than if they were transported to France. They are at the orders of the Supreme War Council of the Allies.

        That makes them an enemy of the Bolsheviks, and thus an ally to the white armies and interventionists. There is no debating that fact. The legion arrived a week after the execution, thus if they'd taken the city like they did, the custody of the Tsar would be in the hands of forces "as much under the orders of the Versailles War Council as the French or American Army". That vindicates the Bolshevik view right there. within 10 days of the execution the army you are saying was not a white army and "all they wanted was to get the hell out of russia" was declared an army of the Entente.

        So which is it? They are a tool of the Entente or they had no motives or reason to serve the interests of the Whites and Entente?

        You keep repeating the same shit right out of an r/historymemes post about how badass they are, not bothering know the timeline of events or reality going on. You want your romantic tale, but that tale runs up against the Romanovs being in a city about to fall to enemies of the Bolsheviks. Calling that objective fact "psychological projection" is ludicrous. You cannot earnestly say

        U kidding me? All they wanted was to get the hell out of Russia. in response to them fighting alongside American Intervention when that's literally what they did. they went back west to fight the Bolsheviks. That's not a theory, that's not presumption, that's historical fact. They had already gotten Vladivostok BEFORE they took Yekaterinburg

        June 13th the white russian provisional Siberian government in Omsk is formed, with Stanislav Čeček commander of the first division in the Legion giving this order

        ...Our detachment – a vanguard of Allied Forces, our only goal – to rebuild anti-Germany front in Russia in collaboration with Russians and our allies..

        Over a month prior to the Tsar being executed. So open collaborators with the White Army seized every major city along the Trans-Siberian railway and then marched on Yekaterinburg, and you seriously wanna say it was "psychological projection" to think that that might end up with the Tsar back in the hands of forces aligned with the white armies?

        Most of them assuredly wanted to get home more than anything, but that does not change the very real fact of what they did and what their actions assisted. The Whites took back territory and set up Allied protectorates and provisional governments in Siberia due to their actions, actions which they followed up by marching west from Vladivostok in order to secure the whites Russia.

        As for disarmament, their own National Council told them to follow orders, this came after they had fights with Hungarian loyalists in their ranks and several Legionaries got arrested. The Legion chose to break their orders, not only that, they took Vladivostok anyways and didn't leave. If that was all they wanted, they could have left, they stayed and killed more Bolsheviks and established Allied administrations.

        Good on them for eventually deciding to go back and GTFO, as well as handing Kolchak over to the Red Armies, but that came after the 1919 Red Army counteroffensive, in 1920. You can empathize with them and find them cool all you want, but that doesn't make the Bolsheviks looking at objective reality "psychological projection"

        @kristina Is there anything you wanna add or correct from a Czechoslovak position?

        • kristina [she/her]
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          edit-2
          2 years ago

          I'd have to talk to my grandma but I'm pretty sure they were reactionary volunteers that bailed out when shit got tight. I'll call her in a bit. I do remember reading about a handful of the commanders siding with the Nazis when they invaded and were put ontrial

          • Vncredleader
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            2 years ago

            I did find that some defected to the soviets/joined the Czechoslovakian Communist Party in Russia, which was, well what the name implies, the Czech communists based in Russia. I know the writer Jaroslav Hašek was one such figure.

            • kristina [she/her]
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              2 years ago

              I'm sure some of them were good but a lot of the leaders don't inspire confidence. Grandma said as much