:reddit-logo: thread for the libs.

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"Andrew Who?" That's most of what the over-30 crowd said in response to the news that Andrew Tate had been banned from TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook after a spate of negative coverage and increasing concerns from parents and teachers about the TikTok star's power over his followers. For adults who don't have teenage sons, the 35-year-old kickboxer-turned-TikTok star was largely unknown, but as anyone in the high school and college age set could tell you, online he was an overnight sensation.

Across the English-speaking world, parents and teachers grew increasingly alarmed, hearing teenage boys and young men parroting Tate's woman-hating rhetoric. One teacher on Reddit last week complained about boys "saying shit like 'women are inferior to men' 'women belong in the kitchen Ms____'.," and refusing "to read an article by a female author because 'women should only be housewives.'" In the thread, multiple teachers chimed in with their own stories about the adolescent fascination with Tate. Beyond arguing that women shouldn't be allowed to drive or work outside of the home, Tate has bragged about beating a woman with a machete and praised Donald Trump for sexually assaulting women.

His popularity is directly attributable to the profit motives of social media companies. As the Guardian demonstrated, if a TikTok user was identified as a teenage male, the service shoveled Tate videos at him at a rapid pace. Until the grown-ups got involved and shut it all down, Tate was a cash cow for TikTok, garnering over 12 billion views for his videos peddling misogyny so vitriolic that one almost has to wonder if he's joking.

Tate is just the latest example of the way that far-right figures lure in young men by preying on their insecurities.

But he is very much not joking.

Police in Romania raided the British-born Tate's Romanian home in April, as part of an investigation into human trafficking. Tate had previously said he likes living in Romania because he believes law enforcement looks the other way on sexual assault allegations.

Parents, teachers, and anyone who cares about the wellbeing of young people should be worried. It's not just that Tate was spreading hateful ideas and encouraging violence against women, though that on its own is terrifying enough. It's that Tate is just the latest example of the way that far-right figures lure in young men by preying on their insecurities. Once the influencers suck in these young men, they start redirecting audience energies towards fascist organizing. Tate is just a piece of a larger puzzle that explains, for instance, how so many otherwise normal young men get wrapped up in groups like the Proud Boys and actions like storming the Capitol on January 6.

The strategy is simple. Far-right online influencers position themselves as "self-help" gurus, ready to offer advice on making money, working out, or, crucially, attracting female attention. But it's a bait-and-switch. Rather than getting good advice on money or health, audiences often are hit with pitches for cryptocurrency scams or useless-but-expensive supplements. And, even worse, rather than being offered genuine guidance on how to be more appealing to women, they're encouraged to blame women — and especially feminism — for their dating woes.

"It's certainly true that male privilege ain't delivering what it used to," Ash Sarkar writes in her piece about Tate for GQ. "Women don't have to sit around waiting to be chosen anymore," but instead are often holding out for male partners who treat them with respect and dignity.

One way for men to respond to this, which many do, is to embrace a more egalitarian worldview and become the partners women desire. But what Tate and other right-wing influencers like him offer male audiences instead is grievance, an opportunity to lash out at feminism. They often even dangle out hope of a return to a system where economic and social dependence on men forced women to settle for unsatisfying or even abusive relationships. Organizing with other anti-feminist men is held out as the answer to their problems.

This bait-and-switch is all over the right-wing influencer world.

What Tate and other right-wing influencers like him offer male audiences instead is grievance, an opportunity to lash out at feminism.

Proud Boys founder Gavin McInness built a young, male audience in large part by suggesting he had the key to landing a "tradwife," which is far-right slang for wives who stay at home and assume a submissive role. (In reality, McInnes's wife is a successful publicist.) Psychology professor-turned-right wing influencer Jordan Peterson first rose to fame as a self-help guru with his book "12 Rules for Life." But his audiences thrill to him not for banal "make your bed" advice, but for proclamations such as recommending "enforced monogamy" on women as a cure for male anxiety. Until his social media ban, Tate was operating something called Hustler University, which promised, for $49 a month, to turn his audience into rich playboys, as he presents himself to be.

But once in the door, the young male audiences aren't just hit with sexist content, but drawn into a larger world of far-right bigotry and, in many cases, anti-democratic sentiment. McInnes's Proud Boys ended up being the vanguard of the Capitol insurrection. Peterson was recently suspended from Twitter and demonetized on YouTube for saying gender transition is "Nazi medical experiment-level wrong."

Most of the coverage of Tate has focused on his misogyny, but as the group Hope Not Hate notes, they've been "monitoring Tate for years, due to his long history of extremism and his close association with major far-right figures." He's been linked with a number of far-right American and British influencers, and not just because he loves Trump. He's been photographed dining with former Infowars anchor Paul Joseph Watson, who was recently recorded ranting about how he wishes "to wipe Jews off the face of the Earth." He's also associated with Jack Posobiec and Mike Cernovich, far-right trolls who pushed Pizzagate and similar hoaxes.

But the 17-year-old kid who starts following Tate because he's titillated by TikTok videos espousing "edgelord" opinions about women doesn't know any of this. All he knows is that this cut guy with a loud mouth is promising that, while "politically incorrect," he's offering advice and opinions that can supposedly give a leg up socially and sexually. It can be intoxicating for young men trying to navigate the confusing and scary world that is often full of rejection. Doubly so when the message they're getting is that the solution isn't to do hard, personal work to make yourself a better catch, but instead to become angry and aggrieved at women for wanting a better deal for themselves.

  • Ideology [she/her]
    hexagon
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    So the gist of the article is that teenage boys are falling for the old "get a gf with this one simple trick!" and then it becomes a bait-and-switch strategy for crypto rugpulls and book sales. The short-term profiteers pave the way for fascist recruiters to scoop up all the lost people falling off the grift wagon. Scams become ideology, and masc culture itself seems to have become an ideology of scams; to the point that they think scamming women is just how being a man is. Then they get frustrated when women are actually wise to it. The obsession with "pure" women and lolis, I think, ties in here, because they represent an oppenness to being scammed and commodified. In some subcultures, even E-girls and femboys/tr*ps represent a demographic that can objectified and commodified vs. their vision of most cis women as cold uncaring shrews.

    I admittedly sorta fell for this in the past, not fully buying in or even getting into the weirder parts of it, but I let it affect my outlook on how the world works. It made me a really unlikable person with anger issues.

    The obsession with sex and hacking/nerfing/rebalancing gender roles to favor men creates a dissatisfying situation. Every time I bring up gender with men they try to corral the convo back to sex and "the means of reproduction" or dating schemes or however they imagine this gender power imbalance. When the simple fact is: the obsession is a feedback loop. It has really obvious tells, so the people who get into this stuff dig themselves deeper into the ideology by actively making themselves less attractive. Giving up their masc gender ideology would break that feedback loop and open up space for them to be the kind of person other people want to be around, rather than limiting them into the confines of the subculture.

    But there is a lot of fear there of losing what little control over their own lives the gender ideology affords them. Accepting my transness allowed me to free myself from the chains of gender ideology and break this wall. But I don't know how to convince cis men that they can do it too in their own way.

    • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      The short-term profiteers pave the way for fascist recruiters to scoop up all the lost people falling off the grift wagon

      The short term profiteers have moved on and are all into "fitness" now as a way to sell bs supplements (turkesterone anybody), actual anabolic steroids and TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) clinics to a young impressionable audience using their parents credit card. There's obviously a ton of money in this, way more than being a "standard" pick up artist/sexist, as a few of them started like that and changed lanes. They can escape criticism by being "honest" about their steriod use which earns them a good reputation in the online fitness world somehow.

      Seriously the "more plates more dates" YouTube channel started as some pick up artist nonsense and is now all about "analysing" steriod use, selling bunk supplements and running TRT clinics for men that don't need them. "Gregg Doucette" on YouTube is similar, I think he has like a wall of bs supplements now in the background lol. That's not even getting into "Liver King" (seriously look that one up lmao). And the Noel Dyzel guy that does the whole "honest heroin/cocaine/drug dealer" bit, but for anabolic steroids. Same with all these roided out influencers on Instagram and TikTok.

      • Ideology [she/her]
        hexagon
        ·
        2 years ago

        Liver King maintains his physique by following a diet of raw beef liver, protein shakes, egg yolks and bone marrow.

        Look at the time, it's gout o'clock.

        This dude is literally just anprim alex jones :alex-supplements:

        • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
          ·
          edit-2
          2 years ago

          The truth is, he doesn't actually follow that diet off screen/set for the most part, (unless he's really committed to the bit) he's jacked like that because he's taking copious amounts of anabolic steroids.

          The eating organ meat, venison and raw eggs to get jacked/competitive has actually been around forever. I know an ex cyclist, he's like 80+ years old now, that said he used to eat raw eggs for breakfast every day back when he raced. Some old school bodybuilders are big into eating organ meat and version, or even venison organs, to get jacked. Does it work? No, but they need a cooler story than "I injected myself with a ton of shit".

          Liver King is just promoting that to a modern audience online. With all the absurdity that involves

          • Ideology [she/her]
            hexagon
            ·
            2 years ago

            Tbh, most of these grifts go back to at least the victorian era. The issue is that they seem to keep crawling back to life because increased alienation is making more and more people vulnerable to the worms like a compromised immune system. :brainworms:

          • Commander_Data [she/her]
            ·
            2 years ago

            Can't wait for the prion that's causing CWD in deer to jump to humans because everyone is eating raw venison organs

    • wtypstanaccount04 [he/him]
      ·
      2 years ago

      I think the thing here is that if you're cis, you're not looking to break gender ideology entirely. I think you have found something that is very helpful for you, and I'm thrilled to hear it! :trans-heart: I'm not interested in leaving my gender behind, however, and I think many cis men would agree. However, what that gender means I think can be changed. That's what de-toxifying masculinity is about: getting rid of abusive behaviors and unjust hierarchies, while keeping behaviors that have worth.

      • Ideology [she/her]
        hexagon
        ·
        2 years ago

        What about your gender do you like, and what do you think isn't working for you?

        • wtypstanaccount04 [he/him]
          ·
          2 years ago

          I like my low voice, and how it feels to yell. Sometimes I wish I had more of a range, but the deeper I go the stronger I feel.

          I like being referred to as he/him, and of the few times I've gotten misgendered (yes it happens every once in a while to cis people too) it felt bad.

          I like being a dude that rocks.

          In a :zizek-preference: sort of way, it's more that the traits in women are traits I don't want to have. For example, I have no problems with having body hair, even as I hear about trans women who can't stand it. I like not having to shave. I don't want boobs as part of my body, and I don't want a vagina as part of my body. I've loathed the idea of putting on makeup ever since I was a kid.

          Stuff I don't like is the idea of having to be ultra-buff and the beauty standards imposed on me. Stuff like having a high income as a standard, etc. Stuff about my gender that is not decided by me. Notably, I also am super fat, and that makes me feel less masculine, which feels bad. Fat assembles in places that mar the "ideal" guy appearance.

          One of the things that gives me comfort is my gender stability. It's one less thing I have to worry about. Being a different gender than the one I have sounds like a hassle I don't want to deal with.

          • Ideology [she/her]
            hexagon
            ·
            2 years ago

            All fair points. I don't think I ever really was advocating for everyone to be trans, technically. There should be space for people who feel as you seem to feel, aiming for more of an ambivalence towards presentation that differs from the usual masc feeling of being the "default" gender. Like, as an extreme example, gender apathy is a thing. I think what I'm more trying to root out is attachment to masculinity as a cultural concept, like all the signifiers we attach to men and manliness and the signifiers we attach to alienated 'lesser' men who can't live up to those standards. Lib society has multiple kinds of men, but they're all toxic and confined to sellable stereotypes. Actual masc genders should be free and unbounded by such silliness, to the point where they don't mean much at all. Cause, tbh, even the stuff you mentioned liking aren't strictly "man" things.