:reddit-logo: thread for the libs.
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"Andrew Who?" That's most of what the over-30 crowd said in response to the news that Andrew Tate had been banned from TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook after a spate of negative coverage and increasing concerns from parents and teachers about the TikTok star's power over his followers. For adults who don't have teenage sons, the 35-year-old kickboxer-turned-TikTok star was largely unknown, but as anyone in the high school and college age set could tell you, online he was an overnight sensation.
Across the English-speaking world, parents and teachers grew increasingly alarmed, hearing teenage boys and young men parroting Tate's woman-hating rhetoric. One teacher on Reddit last week complained about boys "saying shit like 'women are inferior to men' 'women belong in the kitchen Ms____'.," and refusing "to read an article by a female author because 'women should only be housewives.'" In the thread, multiple teachers chimed in with their own stories about the adolescent fascination with Tate. Beyond arguing that women shouldn't be allowed to drive or work outside of the home, Tate has bragged about beating a woman with a machete and praised Donald Trump for sexually assaulting women.
His popularity is directly attributable to the profit motives of social media companies. As the Guardian demonstrated, if a TikTok user was identified as a teenage male, the service shoveled Tate videos at him at a rapid pace. Until the grown-ups got involved and shut it all down, Tate was a cash cow for TikTok, garnering over 12 billion views for his videos peddling misogyny so vitriolic that one almost has to wonder if he's joking.
Tate is just the latest example of the way that far-right figures lure in young men by preying on their insecurities.
But he is very much not joking.
Police in Romania raided the British-born Tate's Romanian home in April, as part of an investigation into human trafficking. Tate had previously said he likes living in Romania because he believes law enforcement looks the other way on sexual assault allegations.
Parents, teachers, and anyone who cares about the wellbeing of young people should be worried. It's not just that Tate was spreading hateful ideas and encouraging violence against women, though that on its own is terrifying enough. It's that Tate is just the latest example of the way that far-right figures lure in young men by preying on their insecurities. Once the influencers suck in these young men, they start redirecting audience energies towards fascist organizing. Tate is just a piece of a larger puzzle that explains, for instance, how so many otherwise normal young men get wrapped up in groups like the Proud Boys and actions like storming the Capitol on January 6.
The strategy is simple. Far-right online influencers position themselves as "self-help" gurus, ready to offer advice on making money, working out, or, crucially, attracting female attention. But it's a bait-and-switch. Rather than getting good advice on money or health, audiences often are hit with pitches for cryptocurrency scams or useless-but-expensive supplements. And, even worse, rather than being offered genuine guidance on how to be more appealing to women, they're encouraged to blame women — and especially feminism — for their dating woes.
"It's certainly true that male privilege ain't delivering what it used to," Ash Sarkar writes in her piece about Tate for GQ. "Women don't have to sit around waiting to be chosen anymore," but instead are often holding out for male partners who treat them with respect and dignity.
One way for men to respond to this, which many do, is to embrace a more egalitarian worldview and become the partners women desire. But what Tate and other right-wing influencers like him offer male audiences instead is grievance, an opportunity to lash out at feminism. They often even dangle out hope of a return to a system where economic and social dependence on men forced women to settle for unsatisfying or even abusive relationships. Organizing with other anti-feminist men is held out as the answer to their problems.
This bait-and-switch is all over the right-wing influencer world.
What Tate and other right-wing influencers like him offer male audiences instead is grievance, an opportunity to lash out at feminism.
Proud Boys founder Gavin McInness built a young, male audience in large part by suggesting he had the key to landing a "tradwife," which is far-right slang for wives who stay at home and assume a submissive role. (In reality, McInnes's wife is a successful publicist.) Psychology professor-turned-right wing influencer Jordan Peterson first rose to fame as a self-help guru with his book "12 Rules for Life." But his audiences thrill to him not for banal "make your bed" advice, but for proclamations such as recommending "enforced monogamy" on women as a cure for male anxiety. Until his social media ban, Tate was operating something called Hustler University, which promised, for $49 a month, to turn his audience into rich playboys, as he presents himself to be.
But once in the door, the young male audiences aren't just hit with sexist content, but drawn into a larger world of far-right bigotry and, in many cases, anti-democratic sentiment. McInnes's Proud Boys ended up being the vanguard of the Capitol insurrection. Peterson was recently suspended from Twitter and demonetized on YouTube for saying gender transition is "Nazi medical experiment-level wrong."
Most of the coverage of Tate has focused on his misogyny, but as the group Hope Not Hate notes, they've been "monitoring Tate for years, due to his long history of extremism and his close association with major far-right figures." He's been linked with a number of far-right American and British influencers, and not just because he loves Trump. He's been photographed dining with former Infowars anchor Paul Joseph Watson, who was recently recorded ranting about how he wishes "to wipe Jews off the face of the Earth." He's also associated with Jack Posobiec and Mike Cernovich, far-right trolls who pushed Pizzagate and similar hoaxes.
But the 17-year-old kid who starts following Tate because he's titillated by TikTok videos espousing "edgelord" opinions about women doesn't know any of this. All he knows is that this cut guy with a loud mouth is promising that, while "politically incorrect," he's offering advice and opinions that can supposedly give a leg up socially and sexually. It can be intoxicating for young men trying to navigate the confusing and scary world that is often full of rejection. Doubly so when the message they're getting is that the solution isn't to do hard, personal work to make yourself a better catch, but instead to become angry and aggrieved at women for wanting a better deal for themselves.
My niece, whose a girl under 10 years old and does not live in a western country, somehow knows who Andrew Tate is. Thankfully because everyone they know is making fun of him.
Gen alpha is screwed. These kids never had a chance. They've grown up with a smart device in hand, even in poorer countries, and been fed junk though the algorithms throughout all their development. As a older gen z, I can already see how growing up with technology has kinda fucked us. But the stuff we grew up with is primitive to what the kids have access to these days.
Tbh, I think it creates a heavy divergence between savvy tech users who can spot trolls/grifts in seconds and algorithm junkies with blank-slate brains ready to be filled with propaganda. From my perspective, the average older millenial and gen-xer is unequipped to deal with online discourse and treat facebook (where they spend most of their time) like an extension of RL without seeing the cybernetics it applies to them. Gen Z, rather, is on average more aware of how they're being affected by cybernetics, but choose to ignore it or downplay it when it's convenient or expedient for their treats.
Yeah Facebook is really insidious for older non tech savvy folks, because it combines elements of real life (most people using their real names and pictures) and elements of community with the batshit Zuckerberg-Cambridge analytica algorithms force feeding them nonsense.
Most older gen z kids or younger millenials grew up with with stuff like flip phones, Mxit, and a blackberry with BBM at most. And only got smart devices in their later teenage years. And that still has had some quite alarming effects in terms of alienation. From chronic internet use (let's be honest that's most of us here), social media overuse, porn addiction, commodification of realtionships online, desensitization to all kinds of things from violence to ideologies, encountering creeps, etc.
Now imagine that, but growing up with a smartphone in a kid's lap since birth in a post 2008 financial crisis, increasingly alienated world. With the Google algorithms on YouTube beaming shit straight into every kids brain. It's bleak.
:yea: but I think, even then, given their increased skill in cybernetic mediums, it would be easier for them to "get it" if someone pointed this stuff out in a way that doesn't sound like extreme boomerism. Replace "throw away your phone" with "take ownership of your identity."
As the oldest millennial I can confirm all of this is true. I lucked out being equipped from a young age to spot that bullshit.
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" was seared into my brain circa 1998 or 99.
funny how the people who primarily fed me that line are also the people who uncritically consume whatever "news" is on the television
social media would be a net good if somehow all the bots and astroturf bullshit could get removed because for the most part people aren't idiots and social media lets people talk about the things they see instead of just passively consume it, but when all that discussion is just 100% shills posing as real people then woops it's even worse than reading/watching the news
It creates more of a divide in some poorer countries as well. My country has a clear divide between rural communities that grew up on old tech and urban communities that had smart phones at a young age. I find the rural kids to be more socialized and capable of living in difficult situations while I've seen the urban kids cry when their phone isn't working.
As someone from "the west" the single best thing I would argue for the global south to do is to co-opt chauvinism and tie that into leftism.
"Look at those westerners! They drool over self-admitted criminals and individuals who want an entire gender to be wiped out, yet they smugly write us off as the savages. They are a barbaric people that simply got lucky."
Aren't you South African? I figured Tate would be more popular there, since he keeps fucking talking about South Africa, especially in his infamous quote about how British Cops offend him because they won't take a bribe.
Okay that explains it then, if Tate talks a ton about South Africa.
And yeah he's right our police are very easy to bribe, for better or worse
Have no idea if it comes up or lot or not. Just knows that he talks about it in the one clip of his that keeps getting posted to different youtube channels. I think the context is that he keeps getting speeding-tickets, because obviously he speeds like a madman and tries to get himself killed constantly.
What are we doing to get alienated young men to our cause?
This isn't a hypothetical by the way, I think there's a clear answer.
The problem is that the right offers easy, immediately digestible, lifehack "solutions" for their grifts. The left, being more honest, tells you that it takes work to succeed, which is a really unattractive proposition by comparison. Putting in the work will make someone more likable in the long term, but without any immediate feedback they seem to give up before then.
The problem lies in the immediate things men/boys desire being locked up in the consent of others, which is and should remain inviolable, esp given how many orgs have crises due to sex scandals.
I think, maybe, what the left could do is offer more honest and lasting networks of friendship and trust, which naturally reward efforts toward self-improvement (actual "basic human nature" vs the invisible hand shit libs peddle). But it seems like opsec and safety are pretty big barriers to this. Hard to get to know people if you suspect they're all cops. For example, most people on here yearn for friends, it's talked about near-constantly, and I don't think people here are against the idea of going beyond cat hug emojis and talking to each other for real. But there's a big element of fear there.
. The left, being more honest, tells you that it takes work to succeed, which is a really unattractive proposition by comparison. Putting in the work will make someone more likable in the long term, but without any immediate feedback they seem to give up before then.
literally impossible for some of us :sadness-abysmal:
I think, maybe, what the left could do is offer more honest and lasting networks of friendship and trust, which naturally reward efforts toward self-improvement (actual “basic human nature” vs the invisible hand shit libs peddle). But it seems like opsec and safety are pretty big barriers to this. Hard to get to know people if you suspect they’re all cops. For example, most people on here yearn for friends, it’s talked about near-constantly, and I don’t think people here are against the idea of going beyond cat hug emojis and talking to each other for real. But there’s a big element of fear there.
also who is going to be friends with these proto chuds? incels getting a relationship can do a lot for them stopping being shitty about women but we can't ask anyone in particular to bite that bullet.
i don't have a solution, let's just abolish capitalism already
incels getting a relationship can do a lot for them stopping being shitty about women
It really doesn't, they just treat their partners like crap.
also who is going to be friends with these proto chuds?
These two statements are contradictory. The point is not to be friends with them but to create the option and let them know it. Right now, they view leftists as super-libs who wall ourselves off for ideological purity. But rather than make weak aesthetic appeals like Maupin's cult, we need them to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. The message should be: exchange shit hubris and selfishness for community. Use community to build communism. The fruits of community will include the stuff they want anyway, but will be healthier for everyone involved. However, without community, there is no communism.
No! I've had an extremely unfinished take for a while that "having friends is praxis" basically and I think you've done a good job of expanding on that sort of idea.
Sorry, internet. :monke-beepboop:
I think my whole ideology is essentially "having friends is praxis". The alienation is real.
they don't contradict if you don't clip out the rest of my words
but we can’t ask anyone in particular to bite that bullet.
jackass.
You're far too focused on confrontation and not at all on problem solving. If you just throw up your hands and say "whelp, it's unfixable" what purpose does that serve? I don't even know you well enough to dislike you.
please stop building straw men.
i hope your irl stuff you mentioned in another chain gets better for you.
Well most of the people we're talking about kinda violently reject efforts to help them because it's not "the right kind of help" getting them to their immidiate short-term goals. So I think the first step is accepting that they need help. Then others will generally be more amenable to putting in a little more effort to get them off the ground. Or at least we should attempt to cultivate that vibe. I'm still trying to figure it out, I think.
Now this is the kind of stuff I've been looking for.
there are very, very, very few people who are actually undatable in the eyes of virtually every member of the demographic they’re attracted to. There’s so many women out there, and they’re all individuals and you can’t make sweeping statements about the kind of people they’re drawn towards and what they find attractive.
Hard agree. So many incels look pretty average...and then they start talking...
If you’re a moderately physically attractive or physically unattractive straight dude who’s socially awkward or have a hard time successfully performing traditional masculinity and you feel like you’re doing all the right things and you observe that other men being creepy or an asshole tends to get rewarded, while you going out of your way to be polite and honest and kind and trying to create a safe environment for others universally gets you a mixture of rejection and hostility, it’s probably not because you’re crazy or lying about it.
Some people who think they're going out of their way to be not creepy are actually being more creepy. Though it depends on their goals. You can tell who's being nice to be nice and who sees you as their "current objective" but is putting that on the backburner to get closer to you. They see themselves as honest but aren't really, because they aren't being honest with themselves, either.
It’s just that it’s not actually the creepiness or the assholery getting rewarded (which is what incels don’t understand), it’s charisma and a successful performance of traditional masculinity.
Hard agree on this. Which is why I think queering masculinity is a possible (though unpopular) solution. The queer community allows for leeway in masc presentation that straight culture doesn't. It creates the freedom to be your authentic self and be accepted for it. But most dudes don't like that they have to let go of some of their signifiers, even ones they don't like (but project what little status/social power they have left) to trade in for new signifiers they would be more comfortable with, or even open themselves up to accepting signifiers they wouldn't have considered before (like a signifier buffet).
Rather, they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to court friendships/relationships in straight culture without the requisite charisma (ie. they want us to somehow take on the sisyphesian task of revolutionizing straight culture), and they also don't want to relax into queer-adjacent spheres by rejecting the signifiers of straight culture. We're not trying to turn people gay/trans, to clarify, but I think queering of masculine presentation might help these 'unconventional' men find a place where people don't care about those straight signifiers.
Do you mean non-queer men should act more queer?
Queer is a very broad heading, including asexual, agender, gender apathetic, demiboy, and much much more! Queer people aren't all genderfuck with simultaneous beards, makeup, and skirts. It's more about cultivating a feminist/anti-patriarchal perspective, allowing yourself the freedom to become your authentic self, and making that underlying structure into a vibe.
And before people say "wow, Magical Boy Gender sounds fucking stupid", that's the point. Manhood is stupid and patriarchal norms are just cosplay. Queer people are just playing with it and having fun because it's not that serious. Gender is fake and we all let this silly fake thing control us. But if you play with gender, then other people also playing the game might ask you to join their team. If you take gender super serious like a career, but can't make it to the big leagues due to traits or poverty or lack of practice, then you get stuck as the ball boy (I think this last sentence answers your first couple paragraphs).
I'm kinda in a spot where I'm running out of energy for debate due to rl stuff. But I think you might appreciate a few of my influences, even if you decide in the end it's not for you.
Masculinity is a Prison with FD Signifier as a guest, during his interview things go from campy to serious. Signifier has great content, and both of these guys are straight/married and trying reach out to people processing masc trauma.
Queering Anarchism in which several queer leftist organizers argue that (our culture of) straightness is bad for people and for movements, even harming the cis/straight people who are meant to benefit.
The Gender Accelerationist Manifesto is a more marxist version of the above. I think maybe I saw you in my thread for that. But it basically argues that gender is a class structure and that disinvesting from it removes some of its power.
I've also read some people influenced by Camatte, but it takes a heavy level of criticality due to modern day material conditions not lining up with his ideas. The one thing I think he does get right in his interpretation of Marx is that to counter capitalism, you need a human community that will keep the flame of communism alive and build toward it. Without building this community, what you end up with instead are a bunch of alienated loners with no potential, not just for revolution but for living their truth (which does line up with material conditions today).
It's a bit of a catch-22 because you need to counter capitalist alienation to even build a community. But even Mao has a speech or two stating that you can't just give people guns and expect to win. Your org has to actively put aside time to address the stresses of those peoples' lives in order to give them the space/reason to help, which is a lot of work. But the very existence of the PRC attests to the success of Mao's early focus on community. His strategy outlasted Russian-influenced groups who focused only on hard power and the nationalists who were allowing their communities to decay to the point that Mao's cadres helping out legitimized his leadership style.
I will say that if Ideology is going to be putting this much work into her responses, you should maybe try to earnestly engage with her when she lists off where she gets her ideas from.
Granted, I imagine you're mainly just trying to ease the mood. But it can be read as being dismissive as well.
I am sorry that I have made this thread a big mess again.
I am not really good at any of these kinds of discussions. For me life has always been a kind of struggle for recognition, and an exercise in having to cajole, or coerce the attentions & concern of people from whom I should never have had to. This is true of my parents & family, who have only ever rarely been able to set aside their own interests, ambitions, or opinions to see to the well-being of me or my sister. It is also true of my "Peers", and "Guardians" who have never hid their repulsion of me.
The end result of this is the creature that I now am. And as such a creature, I don't generally feel at ease to set aside my own interests for the sake of working with others, because I don't have cause to believe that anyone else would do the same. It's not really a desireable position to be in, but it is the one that I have.
I would prefer if it were possible, to simply hide these threads, so that I don't see them & have the temptation to cause further problems. Going forward I may need to figure out how to disengage. Although admittedly now with my leg healing, I'll probably be at work more often & won't have the time to cause ruckus.
Eh, I'm not mad at you or anything. More just disappointed in myself that I can't figure out how to unlock this puzzle (always was bad at puzzles). I think partly I'm running up against a wall because Hex wasn't really designed to be helpful for this sort of thing, but I also can't think of anywhere else where people aren't some subtype of chud.
Ah, IDK. You don't need to be the one to figure this stuff out, tbh and I'm sorry if I'm making you feel like you need to. The big question, and hard problem for popular politics has often been about how to reconcile the needs of particular, marginal, & ill-fitting subjects with the health of society as a whole (and that's before we get to the other hard problem of balancing the needs of those subjects in relation to each other). And you're kinda right that that's not really a question that we can come up with actionable answers to by discussing it abstractly here online.
In a lot of ways I do need to be able to find my own place in the world. I just wish that it was easier to translate online community into IRL community.
In a lot of ways I do need to be able to find my own place in the world. I just wish that it was easier to translate online community into IRL community.
Honestly...same.
Imma be honest; I'm not happy with my involvement in this thread now. 😔
I need to stop letting myself get involved in these.
Probably gonna get rid of what I wrote.
We have answers to most of the issues young men face. The problem is that the capitalist media will never give us the traction that a right winger will get, even if we were to make it.
His popularity is directly attributable to the profit motives of social media companies. As the Guardian demonstrated, if a TikTok user was identified as a teenage male, the service shoveled Tate videos at him at a rapid pace.
So what has to be done is a mass counter propaganda movement in the schools telling young men that they will find happiness in self-discipline, organization, respect for women, and revolution. Of course it's easier said than done. How do we counter Tik Tok, Youtube, and Instagram? Flyers?
He's off all major platforms now, he has shut down his pyramid scheme. It's very funny how he quickly went to "i hate women" to "I donate to feeemaleee charities" after being banned.
It's only a matter of time the next "Tate" becomes popular.
Getting punched in the head all the time can scramble ye Olde noggin.
I deadass feel like I live in an American dad bit:
:lenin-confused:: "You guys are pathetic, you're idolizing a murderer!"
:pit:: "Oh yeah? Well, baba-booie! (annoying laughter ensues)!"
:pit:: "Man joke, you wouldn't get it!"
Why do fascists think western culture is the pinnacle of culture when it regularly considers hedonists, thugs, assholes, and other decadents to be its model citizens?
So the gist of the article is that teenage boys are falling for the old "get a gf with this one simple trick!" and then it becomes a bait-and-switch strategy for crypto rugpulls and book sales. The short-term profiteers pave the way for fascist recruiters to scoop up all the lost people falling off the grift wagon. Scams become ideology, and masc culture itself seems to have become an ideology of scams; to the point that they think scamming women is just how being a man is. Then they get frustrated when women are actually wise to it. The obsession with "pure" women and lolis, I think, ties in here, because they represent an oppenness to being scammed and commodified. In some subcultures, even E-girls and femboys/tr*ps represent a demographic that can objectified and commodified vs. their vision of most cis women as cold uncaring shrews.
I admittedly sorta fell for this in the past, not fully buying in or even getting into the weirder parts of it, but I let it affect my outlook on how the world works. It made me a really unlikable person with anger issues.
The obsession with sex and hacking/nerfing/rebalancing gender roles to favor men creates a dissatisfying situation. Every time I bring up gender with men they try to corral the convo back to sex and "the means of reproduction" or dating schemes or however they imagine this gender power imbalance. When the simple fact is: the obsession is a feedback loop. It has really obvious tells, so the people who get into this stuff dig themselves deeper into the ideology by actively making themselves less attractive. Giving up their masc gender ideology would break that feedback loop and open up space for them to be the kind of person other people want to be around, rather than limiting them into the confines of the subculture.
But there is a lot of fear there of losing what little control over their own lives the gender ideology affords them. Accepting my transness allowed me to free myself from the chains of gender ideology and break this wall. But I don't know how to convince cis men that they can do it too in their own way.
The short-term profiteers pave the way for fascist recruiters to scoop up all the lost people falling off the grift wagon
The short term profiteers have moved on and are all into "fitness" now as a way to sell bs supplements (turkesterone anybody), actual anabolic steroids and TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) clinics to a young impressionable audience using their parents credit card. There's obviously a ton of money in this, way more than being a "standard" pick up artist/sexist, as a few of them started like that and changed lanes. They can escape criticism by being "honest" about their steriod use which earns them a good reputation in the online fitness world somehow.
Seriously the "more plates more dates" YouTube channel started as some pick up artist nonsense and is now all about "analysing" steriod use, selling bunk supplements and running TRT clinics for men that don't need them. "Gregg Doucette" on YouTube is similar, I think he has like a wall of bs supplements now in the background lol. That's not even getting into "Liver King" (seriously look that one up lmao). And the Noel Dyzel guy that does the whole "honest heroin/cocaine/drug dealer" bit, but for anabolic steroids. Same with all these roided out influencers on Instagram and TikTok.
Liver King maintains his physique by following a diet of raw beef liver, protein shakes, egg yolks and bone marrow.
Look at the time, it's gout o'clock.
This dude is literally just anprim alex jones :alex-supplements:
The truth is, he doesn't actually follow that diet off screen/set for the most part, (unless he's really committed to the bit) he's jacked like that because he's taking copious amounts of anabolic steroids.
The eating organ meat, venison and raw eggs to get jacked/competitive has actually been around forever. I know an ex cyclist, he's like 80+ years old now, that said he used to eat raw eggs for breakfast every day back when he raced. Some old school bodybuilders are big into eating organ meat and version, or even venison organs, to get jacked. Does it work? No, but they need a cooler story than "I injected myself with a ton of shit".
Liver King is just promoting that to a modern audience online. With all the absurdity that involves
Tbh, most of these grifts go back to at least the victorian era. The issue is that they seem to keep crawling back to life because increased alienation is making more and more people vulnerable to the worms like a compromised immune system. :brainworms:
Can't wait for the prion that's causing CWD in deer to jump to humans because everyone is eating raw venison organs
I think the thing here is that if you're cis, you're not looking to break gender ideology entirely. I think you have found something that is very helpful for you, and I'm thrilled to hear it! :trans-heart: I'm not interested in leaving my gender behind, however, and I think many cis men would agree. However, what that gender means I think can be changed. That's what de-toxifying masculinity is about: getting rid of abusive behaviors and unjust hierarchies, while keeping behaviors that have worth.
What about your gender do you like, and what do you think isn't working for you?
I like my low voice, and how it feels to yell. Sometimes I wish I had more of a range, but the deeper I go the stronger I feel.
I like being referred to as he/him, and of the few times I've gotten misgendered (yes it happens every once in a while to cis people too) it felt bad.
I like being a dude that rocks.
In a :zizek-preference: sort of way, it's more that the traits in women are traits I don't want to have. For example, I have no problems with having body hair, even as I hear about trans women who can't stand it. I like not having to shave. I don't want boobs as part of my body, and I don't want a vagina as part of my body. I've loathed the idea of putting on makeup ever since I was a kid.
Stuff I don't like is the idea of having to be ultra-buff and the beauty standards imposed on me. Stuff like having a high income as a standard, etc. Stuff about my gender that is not decided by me. Notably, I also am super fat, and that makes me feel less masculine, which feels bad. Fat assembles in places that mar the "ideal" guy appearance.
One of the things that gives me comfort is my gender stability. It's one less thing I have to worry about. Being a different gender than the one I have sounds like a hassle I don't want to deal with.
All fair points. I don't think I ever really was advocating for everyone to be trans, technically. There should be space for people who feel as you seem to feel, aiming for more of an ambivalence towards presentation that differs from the usual masc feeling of being the "default" gender. Like, as an extreme example, gender apathy is a thing. I think what I'm more trying to root out is attachment to masculinity as a cultural concept, like all the signifiers we attach to men and manliness and the signifiers we attach to alienated 'lesser' men who can't live up to those standards. Lib society has multiple kinds of men, but they're all toxic and confined to sellable stereotypes. Actual masc genders should be free and unbounded by such silliness, to the point where they don't mean much at all. Cause, tbh, even the stuff you mentioned liking aren't strictly "man" things.
It isn't just you. But I think it isn't so much that people hear one guy that's edgy and want to dig deeper, I think it is people are feeling more desolate due to capitalism crushing young peoples lives.
They are simply just more and more open to hearing something more extreme. Everything and everyone feels like they are in a downward spiral and once they hear someone lashing out against anything that they perceive is the social norm that torments them, they feel invigorated like they have found their real life hero.
It is kind of like how incel shit was quickly turned into a right-wing pipeline. The frustrations and slights people feel for not measuring up make them feel lousy, and vulnerable to the idea that everyone else is wrong. Sadly it isn't channeled into anything more than hatred towards women, or anyone else they feel frustrates them.
It's honestly depressing to see how human nature falls in line with believing that someone selling nothing but hatred is some kind of leader or messiah. I recall the early days when this discourse was starting on various social media where people act like it is still highschool and just say edgy bullshit or lie to look cool. I watched friends sadly get dragged down in some form or another, with them getting so invested and interested in some influencer's life or opinion.
I think youth clubs like young pioneers, scouts and (here in the UK) cubs/brownies were something that provided an organised alternative way for kids to spend their time rather than falling into reaction.
In the digital age we do none of this stuff. We don't provide leaders through safe and organised means, so these kids go and find their own.
All of those organisations are kind of antiquated in the modern digital age that atomises people though. I don't know how you would do it again to bring it into the modern day and I absolutely don't know how you would make it as ubiquitous as it once was. There's still a place for physical clubs and sports though.
It is probably just a matter of someone organizing something like that. You don't really see much like that in the US for kids to funnel their attention into unless its forced upon them through school.
Maybe I am just getting old, but I am getting to the point of saying fuck the internet for most of what it is currently used for. To me most of it's uses are for communicating with people I know in real life, accessing information, and porn. This site is really one of the few places I frequently post on because the community is so good here. Even online gaming is terrible and I miss the days of couch splitscreen gaming and lan parties.
However it seems many people use the internet almost exclusively for social media. What's worse is that what I used to think was going to be a gateway towards opening peoples minds has been quickly turned into a vehicle for indoctrination. In the last several years I have seen a generation of people go from being open minded about the discourse towards other nations to being red scared into hating the traditional enemies of the United States. How convenient. Now seemingly every redditor is pro-war and ready to shovel billions of dollars into the MIC but talk about how it's only the republicans blocking healthcare. Everyone acts like a mindless drone now, all competing for attention. Everyone is sad, lonely, angry, and doesn't know what to do with their lives because we have all been railroaded into wage-slavery until the day we might get to retire, then realize we spent all our life and mental energy into making someone else rich so we feel empty and purposeless because we never spent enough time focusing on finding happiness.
The Andrew Tate thing is just the latest emotional outlet young men have for blaming someone for their unhappiness and fears. The feedback loop of this is rather astounding because of the digital age. We have a deranged populace that is drowning in capitalism, with terrible and readily available influences like Tate.
How far this addiction will go is... well... :desolate:
Lol if you scroll down far enough there are concern libs whining about Hasan Piker calls Azov Nazis.
I feel like Andrew Tate is more like Milo than Peterson. His fans use the same defense of "he's just a master troll. You're a loser for taking him so seriously" that they did with Milo.
I think I've seen more than one person called "the new Peterson" and it's a little concerning.
They would make him cry on stage. Happens every time he brings up "young people".
I didn't know anything about this guy until I saw him getting made fun of for walking like a weirdo
