For the revleft participation in the system is endorsement of it.
You can't tell people to vote in one election and then tell people that actually it needs to be overthrown and think that's going to happen 5 years later.
At some point or another you just have to commit to it being broken and build your movement based entirely on the fact that it is broken and can not be supported in any way whatsoever.
You are not convincing anyone that there is a need for revolution by telling them that actually there is a reason to participate in the system that you want revolution against. Maybe that passes among very well educated theory-heads but it does not work when you exit theory spaces and start talking to the masses.
Participation in the system can be used as a tool to subvert the system in part by helping convince those who have yet to be convinced that a different system is needed.
That's not to say we should vote for Biden, just that there is usefulness in continuing to participate in these systems while also working to get rid of those we see as obsolete.
Lenin did not advocate for voting for liberals. Lenin advocated for participation in the system as a means of platforming and spreading communist thought, not as a means of actually achieving anything because he knew very well it would not.
His position would be vote for PSL or other communists.
I think I may not have been clear in my last comment.
I agree and was not saying he advocated for voting for liberals. We should not be voting for Biden and I personally plan on voting for the PSL candidates at this time.
My argument was with the "participation in bourgeois elections is an endorsement of those systems" part of the comment.
I think you are mistaking Lenin supporting the Bolshevik party with the position of liquidators. Lenin's conception of the party was that participation was an endorsement, but that the party's underground and illegal aspects need to be covered if possible. Essentially using the pretense of electoralism in order to actually strengthen the illegal party apparatus.
Essentially using the pretense of electoralism in order to actually strengthen the illegal party apparatus.
I thought that came across in my original comment?
My comments are pretty lazy and short here, so they won't capture additional nuance, but he's also saying (in the piece I linked) there are other benefits to participating in bourgeois elections that can help strengthen the party by helping fence-riders or those that haven't been exposed to socialist rhetoric be convinced to join the party. This is in addition to other subversive actions.
If your sole political effort is participation in elections, that's obviously endorsement of the existing system. Just in case, I was also not the person advocating for a vote for Democrats.
For the revleft participation in the system is endorsement of it.
You can't tell people to vote in one election and then tell people that actually it needs to be overthrown and think that's going to happen 5 years later.
At some point or another you just have to commit to it being broken and build your movement based entirely on the fact that it is broken and can not be supported in any way whatsoever.
You are not convincing anyone that there is a need for revolution by telling them that actually there is a reason to participate in the system that you want revolution against. Maybe that passes among very well educated theory-heads but it does not work when you exit theory spaces and start talking to the masses.
Lenin disagreed.
Participation in the system can be used as a tool to subvert the system in part by helping convince those who have yet to be convinced that a different system is needed.
That's not to say we should vote for Biden, just that there is usefulness in continuing to participate in these systems while also working to get rid of those we see as obsolete.
Lenin did not advocate for voting for liberals. Lenin advocated for participation in the system as a means of platforming and spreading communist thought, not as a means of actually achieving anything because he knew very well it would not.
His position would be vote for PSL or other communists.
I think I may not have been clear in my last comment.
I agree and was not saying he advocated for voting for liberals. We should not be voting for Biden and I personally plan on voting for the PSL candidates at this time.
My argument was with the "participation in bourgeois elections is an endorsement of those systems" part of the comment.
I think you are mistaking Lenin supporting the Bolshevik party with the position of liquidators. Lenin's conception of the party was that participation was an endorsement, but that the party's underground and illegal aspects need to be covered if possible. Essentially using the pretense of electoralism in order to actually strengthen the illegal party apparatus.
I thought that came across in my original comment?
My comments are pretty lazy and short here, so they won't capture additional nuance, but he's also saying (in the piece I linked) there are other benefits to participating in bourgeois elections that can help strengthen the party by helping fence-riders or those that haven't been exposed to socialist rhetoric be convinced to join the party. This is in addition to other subversive actions.
If your sole political effort is participation in elections, that's obviously endorsement of the existing system. Just in case, I was also not the person advocating for a vote for Democrats.
Nah you're fine. I was just backing up what the other response was getting at.
Gotcha. Was hoping there wasn't something I was missing. Can always improve your understanding of theory!
I think the best way to put it is how the great Seamus Costello did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCldL_qukLQ
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: