EDIT: I'm very proud of this community. All the posts are making me think and solidly criticizing from an anti-imperialist perspective. Thanks, hexbear

  • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
    ·
    2 years ago

    I don’t believe Russia is imperialist or that this is an inter-imperialist war, so I don’t think that Russian socialists should use the tactic of revolutionary defeatism here - just like Libyan socialists under Gaddafi should not have exercised revolutionary defeatism while imperialists were invading and destroying the nation.

    Revolutionary Defeatism is the duty of socialists in an imperialist nation. Not the duty of socialists in a non-imperialist capitalist nation under attack from imperialists.

    • Hmm [none/use name]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Is Russia today engaged in capitalist imperialism? The answer is contradictory. In the first place, the answer is a plain no. Callinicos wants to call only the ‘top six’ countries imperialist; it is then wholly artificial for him to include Russia among them. More fundamentally, the Russian economy is primarily agricultural and extractive, with significant secondary line in arms exports; and there is not - yet - a fully-autonomous banking sector. On the contrary, Russian ‘foreign direct investments’ consist of individual oligarchs pulling cash out of the Russian domestic economy and putting it into prestige objects like Chelsea FC or real estate. It is not investment of capital: that is, money put to work as investments, which return a profit through the application of capital and labour in combination. If the US wins this proxy war, Russia will more or less rapidly become a semi-colony.

      On the other side, Russia might become capitalist-imperialist - if it devises financial mechanisms independent of Swift, etc, and wins this war. Japan in 1894 was not an imperialist power, but victory over China in the war of 1894-95 made it into one, with the annexation of Taiwan. The Russo-Japanese war of 1904 could have reduced Japan to the status of a semi-colony of Russia; Japanese victory produced, instead, annexation of Korea and clear Japanese entry into the ranks of the great powers. Going further back, but similarly, Germany in 1870 was not an imperialist power. Prussian victory over France in that year provided the conditions for both German unification and an imperialist expansion.

      1870

      1870 is a better guide to our political tasks than either 1914 or 1940. As Mason asserts and Callinicos accepts, the workers’ movement cannot possibly use this war to challenge for power, as the 1912 Second International Congress at Basel urged and as Lenin and Zinoviev urged in 1914. We do not have a powerful mass movement, built up over decades, which could pose an international alternative.

      Equally, however, this is not 1940. The Russian regime is authoritarian, but not fascist. There have not been mass arrests of oppositionists, as in spring 1933 in Germany, but merely harassment and repression of protests. There continue to be multi-party elections - violently skewed in favour of United Russia, true, but Republicans and Tories aspire to skew elections in the US and Britain in their favour too. Our own states increasingly demand police permission for demonstrations, and so on. Russia plays footsy with far-right nationalists - but so does the ‘west’ - and not only in Ukraine. To advocate a people’s front with ‘liberal’ imperialism - as Callinicos rightly says Mason does - for fear of Russian ‘fascism’, is to repeat the betrayals of the Eustonites and other ‘left’ backers of the invasion of Iraq.

      In 1870 Germany was not yet an imperialist power. The war appeared to be a war launched by French emperor Louis Bonaparte (Napoleon III). French victory would have prevented German unification and secured the subordination of the Germanies as semi-colonies. The left had small and divided forces. But Wilhelm Liebknecht and August Bebel - leaders of an organisation less than 10,000 strong who by chance held parliamentary seats - raised their voices against the Prussian regime and its war plans. Their principled commitment - ‘Not a penny, not a man for this system’ - allowed German social democracy to build a voice of unambiguous opposition to the regime under which they lived, which was able to grow on a mass scale because it offered a voice of unequivocal opposition.

      Today, again, the left has small and divided forces. But we can raise our voices against our own state’s wars: and by doing so take a stand which in the long term can rally forces for unequivocal opposition to the warmongering imperialist regime under which we live.

      "Neither 1914 nor 1940" by Mike Macnair

    • UncleJoe [comrade/them]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Even if we're gonna ignore Russia's resource extraction and super-profits in Central Asia, the reason Russia is not part of the big boy imperialists is because they've been denied a seat at the big boy table at every turn. It's not as if they didn't try to join NATO or cozy up to the US, the fact that they're currently aligned against them is less out of Russia's goodwill and more the consequence of decades of US foreign policy blunders and hostility toward Russia. The only way Russia can be imperialist in a world already conquered by the US is to go through them and try to secure a foothold, which is what this war is about. Once again your example is weird, Libya was attacked not the one attacking like in this case. Are you saying Ukrainians should not exercise revolutionary defeatism?

      • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        Russia did not start this or “attack”. NATO threw a fascist coup in 2014, started a civil war and just before the current crisis they prepared invasion of Donbas and did massive artillery strikes in breach of ceasefire. Russia is the victim of imperialism here, of imperialist sanctions and encroachment and encirclement

        Ukrainian army is fascist arm of imperialism so Ukrainians should absolutely exercise revolutionary defeatism.

        • UncleJoe [comrade/them]
          ·
          2 years ago

          If they cared at all about 2014, they wouldn't have taken 8 years to do anything about it. The reason Russia was not accepted into the big boys club is because they're a little too big to leave the US unilateral control over the imperialist bloc, which is why they've tried to contain them as much as possible, that much is true, but it really doesn't make a difference when it comes to their intentions. Why do you think Russia would care about being excluded and ostracized from global imperialist system if they didn't want you to participate in it? What exactly do you think Russia's long term goals are here, and what do you think they'd be doing had the US not been around? Imperialism is not just something the bad countries do, it's an economic inevitability. Russia's problem is that their imperialism is limited to their former backyard of Central Asia at the moment, and to fix that they gotta do like capitalist countries do, and expand. I have no fucking clue how people keep falling for capitalist countries' cynical justification for their actions both on the NATOid and Russian side

          The fact that you can pick and choose which countries should do revolutionary defeatism and even imply there is such a thing as a good capitalist war just tells me there's nothing of worth left discussing here lol

          • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
            ·
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            I suppose you don’t support Palestine then, they are capitalist and conservative. Israel-Palestine conflict is just an inter-capitalist war

            I’m not going to bother responding to this load of moralizing ultra drivel

            • UncleJoe [comrade/them]
              ·
              2 years ago

              Small oppressed nation fighting against settlers and colonizers vs former empire upset that they've been denied their share of imperialist spoils so they decide to secure a place in the sun on their own :thinking-about-it:

              ultra

              You know someone's not mad when the snarl words come out lmao, eat my ass Kautskyite

              • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                Ukraine is a "small oppressed" nation? Just a smol bean fascist NATO base. "fighting against settlers and colonizers" is that really what you think Azov was doing in Donbas? Your lack of material analysis is a disgrace to your name

                  • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    2 years ago

                    Got it, thought you were framing the Ukrainian conflict this way.

                    Your arguments are that of an anarcho-bidenist and you refuse revolutionary defeatism, not sure how that makes me the kautskyite. I attack my own country, that's not what kautsky did

                    • UncleJoe [comrade/them]
                      ·
                      2 years ago

                      Your arguments are that of a duginist multipolarista. See? I, too, can say a bunch of garbage instead of actually engaging with your post

                      The anarcho-bidenists are the ones doing lesser evil-ism and praising NATO's mutual military aid and whatever the fuck, you're doing the same thing but for the opposite side lol. Or rather, you're making the same mistake as them by even think there are two sides when it's just bougies fighting eachother with proles stuck in the middle getting slaughtered. I ask again, should Russians also do revolutionary defeatism and fight back against their own government? If your answer is no, then you've given up on revolutionary defeatism by admitting there is such a thing as a good side in a capitalist war. At that point, stop hiding behind revolutionary defeatism and just call yourself pro-Russia outright