being a leftist isnt about takes, its about what you do. both ml and anarchist approaches are good for different situations. aes states dont need the endorsement of your local food not bombs group, but the people in your community do need food. decentralized groups doing praxis is sometimes the best option, especially in the imperial core as conditions worsen. takes dont matter and aesthetics dont matter. just praxis.
dont blame you there. but unless their feelings become something more than takes, probably aint worth it to cut em off. once youre organized enough to get some real power, worry about takes and who gets to be a part of the left.
so how do we silence bad takes on aes, take power from people who have those bad takes, and use that power to diminish us imperialism? would ditching the anti-sectarian rule on hexbear do that?
maybe im dense, but i still dont get whats to be done.
Doing vs takes is a false dichotomy. You have to do both at the same time.
Doing stuff with a take is actually very important and is one of the weaknesses of non-strategic mutual aid. I've known folks that wanted do mutual aid via a socialist org, for example, who needed to be reminded that the org's banner should be there and it should be an opportunity to talk to people and generally propagandize. There is a risk of just doing charity, not mutual aid, if you don't use theory, and can become recuperated or ignored if you don't spread a coherent message (which can be as simple as, "this is who is doing this").
I do want to point out that what I'm saying isn't validating sectarianism, though. Ancoms are some of the best at this.
thats a fair point. theory is important.
i guess i just dont know why anarchists with aes bad takes are being singled out here, when china bad is one of the least harmful takes a leftist outside china can have since theyve got no power over anything that happens there. maybe it means they got other problems with their theory and praxis that i dont grasp.
China bad is actually very relevant to domestic politics and where a left org should position itself and organize. International solidarity and anti-imperialism are some of the best things you can do in the imperial core. The context in which we operate is one that requires the manufacturing of consent for imperialist actions and war and we will fail to capture and direct new leftists in a direction that actually builds socialism rather than helps destroy it if we can't (1) push new leftists into anti-imperialist positions and (2) pitch and direct anti-war liberals into anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist organizing.
Put another way, if you don't do anti-imperialism, you'll both fail to have international solidarity (you'll actually end up being a "CIA leftist" because US NatSec propaganda will win and you'll let the reactionaries in) and will end up fighting for the conditions of labor aristocrats locally instead of and against children working 14 hour days in Bangladesh. And when war comes a-knocking, which is always in the imperial core, you'll be cheering it on and posting Ukraine flags and going poggers over Zelensky memes and snuff films of Russian soldiers, which is to say, manufacturing consent for the immiseration of millions and the promotion of a unipolar capitalist order.
And what we would have power over, as we build, is resources and propaganda and organizing energy for imperial efforts.
At the end of the day, the question always ends up being, "are you actually going to seriously organize as a coherent anticapitalist?" and in the West the answer is usually no because westerners rarely read let alone break out of hegemonic liberalism, and that includes self-titled socialists, anarchists, communists, etc. We need to make the answer yes, and this requires anti-imperialism full stop, as otherwise your org won't understand capitalism, won't understand international solidarity, won't understand your local culture, won't understand socialism or anarchism, and will end up failing to advance the cause / furthering capitalism instead.
thanks for the explanation. i guess ignoring china bad takes is short sighted if you dont purge them from your org as it grows.
i hope you post this somewhere else since otherwise ill be the only one who sees it after the op deleted their post.
Ha I didn't notice they deleted it. No need to worry, I am very repetitive and will say this kind of thing elsewhere too, probably too often. Thanks for hearing me out!
“I don’t want allies! I don’t want allies! I don’t want allies!”
Diversity of opinion is for suckers, none of my blind spots exist (I’ve never seen them idiot). Fuck all the haters, which are defined to be those unlike me.
I agree with you in the sense that I think bullying should be fully allowed on the site. The rest of what you are saying just seems like real boring nerd shit.
I don't get why you're focusing on the label "anarchist" and then declaring yourself to be sectarian, when it sounds like you're (rightfully) upset that people are pro US empire (or creating new military bases or whatever).
Why don't you just focus on the specific things you don't like (e.g., putting US military bases near China sucks ass and is a dipshit move and anyone who supports that is a dipshit) instead of trying to find a larger label to apply and then defend? Just trying to help you out. You don't seem to be fed up with "anarchists" based on the examples you've given.
Some ML's voted for Biden as some kind of harm reduction. I'd be foolish to say I am fed up with them. :meow-hug:
I think the #1 issue I take with this is that if you are ML, you should be focused on building a leninist-style party and building its influence such that Marxism-Leninism, or the party itself, has some sort of credibility and legitimacy among the masses of people. MLs shouldn’t waist all of their time being debate bros or arguing. MLs should be putting minor disagreements with individual bad actors aside, and maintaining the most cogent, clear-eyed, and powerful analysis to any political question. Disagreements with “fellow travelers” and other “socialist” or social democrats will happen, but focusing on those differences and constantly confronting other about it is a dead end. Out focus should be connecting with the masses, not arguing in an increasingly small circle of leftists.
If someone agrees with you on things you want to work on, work with them, unless they are racists or fundamentally reactionary. Despite bad takes and a lack of anti-imperialism, I wouldn’t put most anarchists in that camp. From my own experience, the most egregiously bad anarchists, in terms of bad takes, usually won’t work with MLs anyway. They find any excuse they can, because they are fundamentally anticommunist and completely liberal. Then you never have to worry much about them because they usually have a hard time organizing the masses in any sustainable way, often alienating other who might see things even slightly differently. Focus on your own biz, and if anarchists are doing something cool, critical support. It isn’t the job of MLs to micromanage other working class folks organizing, we should be celebrating any working class effort to self organize and to realize their democratic potential. if you want to be the vanguard of the working class, you need to earn it by building the best party possible and winning the tryst of the people. stop squabbling.
I wouldn't worry too much about them, I was an anarchist for years (worked on some stuff in the FAQ) but even there I understood there was no way to actually achieve anarchism at scale in the short term (other than the kinds of disasters that really foreclose on our ability to care or think about how "society" is organized).
The only way you get to a place where anarchism is possible is through education, which requires there not be incentives to obfuscate and immiserate, which requires the destruction of capitalism, which in reality definitely requires a transition and replacement of the current order.
Unfortunately, if you want at least semi-coherent anti-imperialism you're also gonna need to reject a ton of socialists/commies. Also you'll need to embrace a bunch of ancoms who do far better than those Trots and MLs and vaguely Marxist people at not sounding like a CIA person.
IMO, the tendency of westerners being politically incoherent is the elephant in the room that makes it almost pointless to talk about tendencies. The bad takes onslaught isn't from people who have done a bunch of good reading that weigh their opinions against a real organizing effort against the national bourgeoisie. It is truly just liberalism and Western incoherent bias. It's people who call themselves socialist or anarchist that uncritically absorb New York Times narratives and use it to do nothing distinguishable from a fed or conservative Dem. It's baby leftists (again, liberals) who call themselves socialist while cheering on Zelensky and eating up every dumb pro-war propaganda effort on Ukraine. These people outnumber us and they do this shit in our name.
There is also a risk of reactionary takes more generally, including homophobic, transphobic, and misogynist takes in Western political orgs, especially ones that call themselves socialist / communist. These are also orgs that aren't concerned that in a community where white people make up 40% of the population, the org is 80% white and 80% cishet dudes. They fail to integrate with and learn from the masses, to gauge the local conditions, to be effective in any way, and end up just plain alienating people and fucking around. And they miss the opportunity to be an org of solidarity, to be a force against marginalization pointing the right fingers.
Anyways, my point is that it's almost pointless to spend much effort dunking on anarchists. 9 times out of 10 you're talking about liberals that have read 2 books, listen to V*ush or some shit, and have no idea what's happening. That really isn't an anarchist, just like the person who calls themselves a ML after reading The Communist Manifesto and skimming Twitter generally isn't a communist (and can be taken in by reactionaries like Haz). These are Western liberals reproducing their fundamentally reactionary upbringings, just in different flavors. To fight them, what we need to do is build orgs and effective propaganda against this liberalism, not rehash fights that generally turn into a discussion about the 1910s that no party even understands.