- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmygrad.ml
- news
The western values Ukraine is defending are becoming more apparent by the day.
Didn't Ukraine also ban the opposition party, jail opposition politicians and cancel elections?
What do you mean by "western values Ukraine is defending"? This change doesnt really have anything to do with values, they're running out of resources. And if you think Russia gives the tiniest shit about human and property rights... lol
Oh this must be that whataboutism we keep hearing about. Meanwhile, I love how running out of resources means it's ok to abandon all your values in the minds of liberals. Mask sure falls off pretty fast.
So explain, then, what point you're making and what your alternative is? Your initial statement is intentionally vague and seems to have a very direct agenda to make Ukraine look bad by posting this article. And I didn't claim Ukraine expanding its martial law powers was "right", because its not, but it is at least understandable considering how their entire country is teetering on the edge of complete civil collapse (and such restrictions are with precedent, most nations do during wars and even America did restrict a lot of liberties during WWII/vietnam/etc). Sticking to your morals is valiant but pointless if it means you get overrun by those without morals.
But your vague statement seem to think this change makes them worse than Russia.The point I'm making is very simple and should be obvious. When the regime has to grab people off the street and force them to fight, then it has no legitimacy. This isn't a case of people willingly defending their country, it's fascist regime backed by the west that's forcing people to die in a senseless war. If you can't understand such basic things then what else is there to say to you.
Alright, let's roll with that logic: A sovereign government that violates the sovereignty of it's citizens is illegitimate. Since Ukraine is now violating the sovereignty of it's citizens for wartime mobilization, it is an illegitimate government. That's a sound premise, actually. In a vacuum this would be true.
However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this "senseless war". Ukraine did not violate it's citizen's sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine. By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.
So, now extend your argument: Let's go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven't.You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.
It literally is a fascist shithole. It’s littered with monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators, it’s armed forces are filled with Nazis, its leadership pays homage to Nazi collaborators, and the entire reason we’re in this situation is the US-backed coup in 2014 of which Nazis were the prime domestic force, and which led to the proliferation of Nazi gangs. Ukraine is not an independent nation.
You talk about Russia violating sovereignty, what about the Ukrainian bombing of the Donbas (illegal cluster munitions used) and repeated violations of ceasefires? Russia didn’t invade Ukraine out of the blue, they had specific demands for the end of far-right nationalism, repression of Russian speakers, and NATO expansion (NATO itself being a Nazi collaborationist institution).
I don't care if my comment is "normal," but it is "rational and source-supported." You're not "calling out hexbear users," you're flaunting your ignorance. Points sourced one by one:
It’s littered with monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators [*] [*]
Tweet by the National Guard of Ukraine:
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its leadership pays homage to Nazi collaborators [*] [*] [*]
and the entire reason we’re in this situation is the US-backed coup in 2014 of which Nazis were the prime domestic force [*] [*]
(illegal cluster munitions used) and repeated violations of ceasefires [*] [*]
they had specific demands for the end of far-right nationalism, repression of Russian speakers, and NATO expansion [*] [*]
NATO itself being a Nazi collaborationist institution [*] [*]
I just want to thank you and @davel@lemmy.ml for the time and effort you put into these heavily-sourced and informative comments. Even if these lying, willfully ignorant shitlibs can't appreciate it because it so clearly demonstrates how wrong they are and how little they know, some of us reading do appreciate it. I've learned a lot as a result and am better equipped to help others who might be willing to try to better understand the situation too.
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lying, willfully ignorant shitlibs
Not everyone in the audience is that. I was a Burgerland lib once, too, exposed to the exact same propaganda for decades, so I know at least some can break out of it, if they’re curious & intellectually honest.
After witnessing in real time how obviously fabricated the justification for the Iraq War was, and how seemingly credulously the media propagated it, I was no longer able to ignore the cracks in the propaganda. It still took me many, many years to peel away layer after layer. It’s a process. I’m just trying to help people get there faster than I did. The dissonance between what’s happening in Gaza & the West Bank right now and Western governments’ & corporate media’s coverage of it is even harder to ignore than the Iraqi WMD lies were twenty years ago, so this is an opportune moment for others.
Not everyone in the audience is that.
For sure, and I hope it didn't look like I was implying that. It's why I made a point to say that "some of us reading" appreciate your commentary. The "lying, willfully ignorant" thing was referring specifically to Unruffled and empireOfLove who you and robinnn were replying to respectively. The long process of questioning propaganda and the widening cracks that you describe is similar to my own experience, and I even commented recently about how the purpose of debating people in these online threads is rarely to change the mind of the person you're arguing with, but rather to speak to the audience and plant the seeds that their doubt will hopefully grow from over time.
Yup, you totally get it. I doubt I’ll see the fruits of my labor on a pseudonymous social media platform, and I’m okay with that.
there is no practical benefit to adding fats to bullets right? can anyone comment?
No it's just thinly veiled Islamophobia.
Some fascists have an urban myth that since pork is haram, Muslims shot by a bullet covered in lard go to hell.
Chechnya has a lot of Muslims and Ramzan Kadyrov is the head of state of Chechnya, so "Kadyrov orcs" is a dog whistle for Muslims.
Ah I didn't know lard only came from pigs. I thought it was a general descriptor of like solid fats.
It's good for making your magazines more irritating to load
Lard is pig fat, which they use because it’s not kosher, despite most of their targets not being Jews. Nazism is vibes-based and seldom makes sense. Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. —Voltaire
It wasn't because the fascists thought they were fighting Jews (in this case), it was because most of the Chechen soldiers were Muslim, who also have prohibitions on using or consuming pigs. It was of course typical nazi-style petty racism, but it was specifically about targeting Muslims.
oic tanks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Islamic_and_Jewish_dietary_laws
Sorry that opinions and facts exist outside of your instance's echochamber.
If you're concerned with opinions and facts, why did you ignore all the well-sourced replies debunking your comments?
You're right the thing about having maligned political opinions is I've never heard the mainstream side.
You literally accused someone of being a paid Kremlin agent because they had facts and opinions you didn't like lmao
It's hilarious that you people think the mods of a random instance are a front for the Hexbear NKVD or something, as opposed to the simple explanation that what you call "Russian propaganda" is what we call "things the west will admit six month later."
Six months from now you'll be pretending you always knew Ukraine was a fascist shithole as you argue for the emergency conscription of Volksturm units to stop the Russian horde.
Three years ago they were all also admitting that, we've just decided that this particular war fell out of the coconut tree.
Six months from now you’ll be pretending you always knew Ukraine was a fascist shithole
Just as Western corporate media admitted to it up until just before 2022, as I showed elsewhere in this post.
Even if it was a “Nazi” state, which it patently isn’t
It is by Western corporate media’s own accounts: https://lemmy.ml/comment/10679555
that doesn’t for one minute excuse the Russian invasion.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “excuse,” but I’ll further add:
- The Guardian, 2022: Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
- Responsible Statecraft, 2023: NATO expansion and the origins of Russia's invasion of Ukraine
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- The blueprint of regime change operations
Well I only speak for myself but I don't care for Putin personally. I think it's a shame he's the head of state, I really wish he wasn't the favored successor of the guy the US helped install at the head of the new state after the USSR started to fold. That entire era was a massive human rights tragedy, I think we agree.
I think what is irritating to a lot of people who aren't pro-Ukraine is that the entire world knew there was a fascism problem before the war. Now we're expected to support them like they're noble underdogs, because the government wants to do things western governments approve of.
I don't think it's good to round up young men and force them to die in a war they don't want to participate in. I have no control over Putin but a bunch of my labor value is being used, against my will, to turn a bunch of people into corpses.
Are you saying that Ukraine does not celebrate Bandera as a national hero or that Bandera was not a Nazi? Are you saying that Ukraine did not knowingly integrate explicitly neo-Nazi militias who recruited on the basis of their neo-Nazi ideology or that that those battalions are not neo-Nazis? Are you saying that the USA doesn't vote against the resolution to condemn celebration of Nazis every single time it comes to vote or that the resolution isn't actually about condemning the celebration of Nazis?
Just trying to figure out which "facts" you're working with here.
@empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com Your comment has been up for over four hours, so 0 for 1 on predictions. I gave you citations for what I said in my comment, things you would have known if you would've looked into the conflict at all. You were so concerned with "discourse based in logic" and "source-supported comments," so what happened?
It's extremely scummy to imply I'm a liar or making stuff up, then when I go and prove what I've said, you can't even respond to apologize. If your comment was just a dishonest method of wasting my time, then you should be banned and have your comment removed.
I wish just once that one of these "market place of ideas-facts and logic-rational source-supported" lib debate perverts would actually engage with your posts. You always have tons of sources for everything and you cite them in posts like its an MLA style essay, and then these libs just ignore it.
I know "rational discource-logic-source supported" are just affectations for these people, but they clearly don't even care about trying to appear like its anything more than that
Oh well it got removed after four hours, and they caught a 30 day c/worldnews ban. Another victim of communism
However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this “senseless war”.
Weird, last I checked Ukraine was involved in a war against Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.
Ukraine did not violate it’s citizen’s sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine.
And if people of Ukraine wanted to defend the state then they would be voluntarily fighting to do so.
By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.
None of that has anything to do with the western sponsored regime in Ukraine forcing people to fight Russia for western interests.
So, now extend your argument: Let’s go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven’t.
The premise the west peddles is that Ukraine is defending western values against Russia which is already presumed to be bad. However, if it turns out that Ukraine is doing the same things you claim are bad when Russia is doing, then what values is Ukraine defending exactly?
Turns out this conflict isn't about values it all, it's about whose sphere of influence Ukraine is going to be under.
You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.
Meanwhile, you're making an incoherent argument that doesn't make a lick of sense trying to defend literal fascism in Ukraine.
alliances
Go outside
pockets full of rubles
Fall in love with and marry a patch of grass
I love how you just straw man when being called out on your bullshit and then try to take the high ground. A real class act.
LOL. What a ridiculous take. "Alliances". You don't have national alliances, neither do any of us, because we're people. We have opinions. And the opinions of most of the left globally is that the USA is the greatest scourge of humanity and Russia is in a fight for its existence against an American proxy in the form of Ukraine.
It's also such a thought terminator when you libs assume the only way people could arrive at this opinion is if you're paid to do it, as opposed to libs who clearly are free thinkers and don't get paid for their ideas they just arrive at them fully independently even though it completely aligns with US propaganda efforts, official State Dept narratives, and the clear oligarch-run news media consensus. You could never be paid to have your ideas, but your opponents? Of course they have nothing worthy of arguing because they are paid shills regurgitating from a script.
You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part I: The Origins of the OUN 1917-1941
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part II: The OUN during World War 2, 1941-1945
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part III: 1944-1963 UPA War, Ratlines, and the Assassination of Stepan Bandera
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part IV: The Global OUN Network in Exile, 1962-1992
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2022: Evidence of US-Backed Coup in Kiev
Edit to add: Usually someone responds with, yeah well Russia has fascists, too, to which I usually respond:
There are Russian fascists. Take Navalny, for example, who the US tried to use in its regime change efforts so that it could resume its neoliberal shock therapy plundering that started under Yeltsin and ended under Putin.
Quoting Internationalist 360° as a reliable source isn't going to win anyone over. And the 'The Hill' article you listed concludes something that is the opposite of what you are claiming:
The odious Russian media tried to paint Ukraine as a land of Nazis, though that is patently wrong. Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community, and its far-right is still on the fringe.
We all understand your point of view, everyone's a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.
We all understand your point of view, everyone’s a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.
I don’t think that at all. Being “against” Russia or China doesn’t per-se make someone a fascist. I’m not confused about what fascism is, and I don’t use it as a floating signifier for stuff I don’t like.
But neither Russia nor China is imperialist. The imperial core is imperialist, otherwise known as the Global North.
.
Over 20 years go Russia—at the time lead by Putin—wanted to join the imperialism club, but the US rejected them: Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule. Now Russia, rejected by the Global North, has no choice but to join with the Global South as allies instead. This shift in allegiances has been massively accelerated by the sanctions of this war.Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community
So fascism means hating Jews? What about the fascists genociding Palestinians in Israel as we speak?
Notice that point from "The Hill" has no examples or evidence. It's not relevant; they were citing the examples given not the author's out-of-the-blue conclusion (which can be chalked up to the counter-bias that was the reason it was cited). I have another comment on this post proving that the far-right is not "still on the fringe."
Quoting Internationalist 360° as a reliable source isn't going to win anyone over.
Oh, I see the issue: you don't understand how sources work. They're not citing Internationalist 360° as a reliable source by itself—if you would've read until the end of the article you would've seen that the author provided a list of sources used. The article is simply a summary of the history using those sources.
Please tell me about "Chinese imperialism." I'd love to hear about how Chinese investment in Africa, the only FDI with a positive impact on development, is "imperialism." I'd love to hear how the PRC's claim to Taiwan, despite being accepted by nearly every country on earth and recognized by the UN (and favored upon by the majority of Taiwanese despite no clear support for total reunification, hence its not happening yet when China could conceivably force it upon the population), the US admitting that their cynical support for separatism is only to keep the PRC down, is "imperialism," and in fact Taiwan is an independent state with no relation to China (despite its constitution being the Constitution of the Republic of China, and its president the president of the Republic of China, with the so-called ROC claiming sovereignty over all of the mainland of China, Outer Mongolia, and Russia—see the emblem of the ROC Marine Corps).
We all understand your point of view, everyone's a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.
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So if enough people won’t fight the government should shut down and let the invaders take over? Is that your alternative? Civilisations sometimes need to force people to work for a common good. See also vaccines.
common good
what is good for the commons about shoveling more unwilling ukrainian bodies at a fight they want to be over
awesome yes, they should let putin take everything over so he can then shovel Ukrainian and Russian bodies into his next annexation project!
That's literally what will happen if Ukraine keeps on fighting. They have sent literally every soldier and every piece of equipment they had into the breach. They have sent multiple times over the budget of Russia's military in and it's been destroyed. They are running out of everything. The average age of a Ukrainian soldier has sky rocketed.
This only stops with a negotiated peace deal.
yeah if they want to surrender that's their decision, lmao? people in other countries don't exist to be pawns of US foreign policy, they actually have their own lives and interests
Lmao. They’ve got an army from another country tearing through their land. I reckon they’ve got larger problems than “this isn’t the best form of democracy in the world”. Again, no solution from you apart from lying on their backs.
If people wanted to defend their land they would do it voluntarily. Evidently this is a hard concept for liberals to wrap their heads around.
The “common good” in bourgeois democracies is the good of the capitalist class at the expense of the working class.
Wikipedia: Bourgeois revolution
Bourgeois revolution is a term used in Marxist theory to refer to a social revolution that aims to destroy a feudal system or its vestiges, establish the rule of the bourgeoisie, and create a bourgeois (capitalist) state. In colonised or subjugated countries, bourgeois revolutions often take the form of a war of national independence. The Dutch, English, American, and French revolutions are considered the archetypal bourgeois revolutions, in that they attempted to clear away the remnants of the medieval feudal system, so as to pave the way for the rise of capitalism. The term is usually used in contrast to "proletarian revolution", and is also sometimes called a "bourgeois-democratic revolution"
BBC: [Princeton] Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
I don’t mean to imply that Russia isn’t a bourgeoise democracy—it is as well, but at least it’s not under the boot of the imperial core like Ukraine is. Russia emancipated itself from the US neocolonial shock therapy plundering that began with Yeltsin and ended with Putin.
If even an actual invasion does not motivate a sufficient number of people to volunteer to fight for their government, then why should that government be seen as worth preserving?
even America did restrict a lot of liberties during WWII/vietnam/etc
Hilarious that you think this is an argument that works in your favor
Yes, America did concentration camps in WW2. One more piece of evidence that the US government is an irreconcilable danger to everyone both outside and inside itself.
I think one thing that's getting lost in the discussion here is you keep talking about governments as if they are people. Ostensibly liberal states exist to protect human beings and their rights. At the point where "you" have to let "your" values slide in order to deal with "your" existential crisis we are talking about the governent as if it has feelings and its own aspirations that deserve to be treated with the same seriousness we theoretically want to apply to human welfare.
I feel very bad for Ukrainians, to be clear, I think they've been mistreated by the US who used them to try and get one over on an adversary in the knowledge that other people will be the ones dying if it goes poorly. That's certainly very bad.
However you feel about the justice of the invasion, though, we've reached the point where even people who support the war and want Ukraine to win are defining winning as a negotiated settlement where they give up territory. If NATO is not willing to fight Russia directly (clearly they aren't) and continuing the aid to the conflict is not even providing a reasonable way for Ukraine to retain its territory and even cheerleaders who are on the side of Ukraine's government believe they will have to negotiate a settlement then WHY ARE WE NOT PUSHING THAT? More Ukrainians are being expected to die, against their will as you freely acknowledge, for no long term strategic purpose.
The death and destruction from this war is a human tragedy. It will be more tragic if it is prolonged for years only to end in the same way it could have within months.
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Ukraine is defending the western values of Hitlerite racism
Uhhh, Russia is a capitalist country, not a socialist one. They absolutely care about property rights because that is what capitalism requires. Russia has no intention of executing land reform any time soon.
