I get that you're not being serious here but this is exactly what I mean. They had a different mommy. Maybe they were abused and only learned to influence their surroundings through violence. Maybe the truest love they'd ever felt was the pride of their parents for believing the same lies. Almost certainly they had the un-humanity of the Other drilled into their head harder than it was drilled in to yours or mine.
look comrade, I have literally already - in a reply to you, not elsewhere that you might have missed - stated that a just system would put bullets in these people's heads yesterday. All I'm saying is we need to understand what made them like this in order to keep more of them from existing.
Friend. Pal. Buddy. You're making shit up about what I said. I'm not excusing genocide and to accuse me of such is either deliberate bad faith or a straight-out lie. I have genocide victims in my family and I don't want to let you win by knowing that you're pissing me off, but you're pissing me off.
I'll read your hour long essay when you demonstrate to me that you have read the thirty seconds of conversation that we're literally having with each other. Until then, I'm reading the other essay I was linked by a person who is far more effective at communicating and coherent than you are.
the point is that you can recognize both the bad conditions and traumas that would make a person want to accept brainwashing while also understanding their own conscious acquiescence to the material benefits of that situation, and often an integration of the accompanying propaganda. it's not a carrot and a stick, it's popcorn and a movie, but i don't think we have to care per se about which factor is potentially more dominant in making a person a genocide supporter: they're helping do global murder.
This comment doesn't actually disagree with the person at all, though. You're right, and they're right. We should be distrustful of veterans, but not because we're mystically superior beings who are just built different. We should be distrustful of them because they have a provably dangerous mindset, given all the murder.
So why does the distinction matter? Well, it wouldn't, if people wouldn't also keep bringing morality in the conversation. Once we start talking about some sort of abstract moral judge of character, the distinction becomes very important, because of ethical implications I'm too burnt out right now to explain.
I would like to see you actually answer this question because its pretty key to dispelling the notion that you DONT think you were somehow born with "dont participate in genocide" genes.
This is especially important because military recruits are children. Groomed for killing instead of sex.
I disagree, I think the whole exchange is sob story bullshit that would be laughed out of the thread if it was applied to any other comparable state.
This is the kind of dilemma libs fret over when they read about the Nazis and "Oooh geeee I dunno would I be participating in the kristallnacht if I was in Germany? Ooooh I just dont have any agency oooh."
Well I don't fall into that strawman so you have to actually engage with my point. I'm an absolutist about this and don't differentiate between nations that did evil.
OP's point was if you went through the exact same life experiences you'd make the exact same choices. If your reason for believing this isn't true ISNT "I have the dont participate in genocide gene", then what is it? Because "im just born different, my morality is in my bones" is the only explanation for that I can see.
Its not a fucking sob story because I dont feel sorry for them. I think accountability is necessary when harm is done.
I think this line of argument is tedious horseshit meant to ultimately wedge in apologism for veterans no matter the assurance that "oh no I definitely still think the bad ones should get punished", and that this would not be fucking accepted for any other comparable state, yet the American instincts of this site seem to demand endless horrible dogshit debates like this be had no matter what when American veterans are maligned, when the same people would rather hurl than argue like this for something like the IDF.
Well sure its real fucking easy to say that when confronted with an accusation, but I dont think you would actually, I just do not believe that because I see threads about other militaries and 99 times out of 100 stuff like this isnt said.
And I am speaking in general, this thread has over a hundred replies, and there have been like a dozen threads just like this this year. Sorry that you specifically feel strawmanned by me speaking of the general tendencies of this site and not taking your uniqueness into account.
Now you're assuming shit about me lol. I didn't participate in those threads. Sometimes I do fall into screaming the usual bloodthirsty slogans for catharsis reasons but my ethos under all that remains the same. I think retributive justice is morally wrong and useless. I think leftist bloodthirst has gone off the rails. And i'm starting to get more and more angry about it and its past my bedtime so I'm going to log off.
Where'd you get your basic morals and solidarity?
My mommy.
I get that you're not being serious here but this is exactly what I mean. They had a different mommy. Maybe they were abused and only learned to influence their surroundings through violence. Maybe the truest love they'd ever felt was the pride of their parents for believing the same lies. Almost certainly they had the un-humanity of the Other drilled into their head harder than it was drilled in to yours or mine.
I will simply not be excusing genocide.
If you are going to reply to this with further sob story hypotheticals, simply do not, fuck off instead.
look comrade, I have literally already - in a reply to you, not elsewhere that you might have missed - stated that a just system would put bullets in these people's heads yesterday. All I'm saying is we need to understand what made them like this in order to keep more of them from existing.
Read the essay.
Friend. Pal. Buddy. You're making shit up about what I said. I'm not excusing genocide and to accuse me of such is either deliberate bad faith or a straight-out lie. I have genocide victims in my family and I don't want to let you win by knowing that you're pissing me off, but you're pissing me off.
I'll read your hour long essay when you demonstrate to me that you have read the thirty seconds of conversation that we're literally having with each other. Until then, I'm reading the other essay I was linked by a person who is far more effective at communicating and coherent than you are.
the point is that you can recognize both the bad conditions and traumas that would make a person want to accept brainwashing while also understanding their own conscious acquiescence to the material benefits of that situation, and often an integration of the accompanying propaganda. it's not a carrot and a stick, it's popcorn and a movie, but i don't think we have to care per se about which factor is potentially more dominant in making a person a genocide supporter: they're helping do global murder.
This comment doesn't actually disagree with the person at all, though. You're right, and they're right. We should be distrustful of veterans, but not because we're mystically superior beings who are just built different. We should be distrustful of them because they have a provably dangerous mindset, given all the murder.
So why does the distinction matter? Well, it wouldn't, if people wouldn't also keep bringing morality in the conversation. Once we start talking about some sort of abstract moral judge of character, the distinction becomes very important, because of ethical implications I'm too burnt out right now to explain.
I would like to see you actually answer this question because its pretty key to dispelling the notion that you DONT think you were somehow born with "dont participate in genocide" genes.
This is especially important because military recruits are children. Groomed for killing instead of sex.
I disagree, I think the whole exchange is sob story bullshit that would be laughed out of the thread if it was applied to any other comparable state.
This is the kind of dilemma libs fret over when they read about the Nazis and "Oooh geeee I dunno would I be participating in the kristallnacht if I was in Germany? Ooooh I just dont have any agency oooh."
Well I don't fall into that strawman so you have to actually engage with my point. I'm an absolutist about this and don't differentiate between nations that did evil.
OP's point was if you went through the exact same life experiences you'd make the exact same choices. If your reason for believing this isn't true ISNT "I have the dont participate in genocide gene", then what is it? Because "im just born different, my morality is in my bones" is the only explanation for that I can see.
Its not a fucking sob story because I dont feel sorry for them. I think accountability is necessary when harm is done.
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bike.
So you admit your life experiences lead you to have better morals but still think OP's wrong because... idk?
I think this line of argument is tedious horseshit meant to ultimately wedge in apologism for veterans no matter the assurance that "oh no I definitely still think the bad ones should get punished", and that this would not be fucking accepted for any other comparable state, yet the American instincts of this site seem to demand endless horrible dogshit debates like this be had no matter what when American veterans are maligned, when the same people would rather hurl than argue like this for something like the IDF.
I dont engage with it because of that.
I already said that I dont have that double standard but you're still strawmanning me with it lol. I would absolutely argue this for the IDF lol.
Well sure its real fucking easy to say that when confronted with an accusation, but I dont think you would actually, I just do not believe that because I see threads about other militaries and 99 times out of 100 stuff like this isnt said.
And I am speaking in general, this thread has over a hundred replies, and there have been like a dozen threads just like this this year. Sorry that you specifically feel strawmanned by me speaking of the general tendencies of this site and not taking your uniqueness into account.
Now you're assuming shit about me lol. I didn't participate in those threads. Sometimes I do fall into screaming the usual bloodthirsty slogans for catharsis reasons but my ethos under all that remains the same. I think retributive justice is morally wrong and useless. I think leftist bloodthirst has gone off the rails. And i'm starting to get more and more angry about it and its past my bedtime so I'm going to log off.