Amount you can carry
Fighting between the big-round and small-round groups reached a peak in the early 1960s, when test after test showed the .223 Remington (M193 5.56×45mm) cartridge fired from the AR-15 allowed an eight-soldier unit to outgun an 11-soldier unit armed with M14s at ranges closer than 300 meters. U.S. troops were able to carry more than twice as much 5.56×45mm ammunition as 7.62×51mm NATO for the same weight, which allowed them an advantage against a typical NVA unit armed with Type 56-1s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO#Adoption_in_battle_rifles
Interesting chart there too about how much ammo you can carry in a 10kg load of magazines.
260 rounds of 762 NATO
620 rounds of 556
360 rounds of 762 Soviet.
Long Range Effective Accuracy
On the other hand, once you get out to like 300 yards/meters, lighter rounds will get tossed around by the wind, but personally I was having success with very heavy 85gr Open-Tip Match 5.56. But that's premium stuff, and standard 55gr and 62gr projectiles were very hit or miss shooting prone at a 8-inch target.
Recoil and Quickness of Follow-up Shots
.308 out of an AR-10 feels like twice the recoil of 5.56 out of an AR-15. It's not fun. The gun weight too feels like twice as much. If I'm lugging something around I know which I'd prefer.
What are your thoughts? Also, is the new larger US military rifle/caliber contract won by SIG Sauer dead in the water? I think it is, except maybe for specialized roles like DMRs.
i think the partiality to high-caliber "stopping power" fundamentally mischaracterizes infantry.
if every infantry guy was a rambo motherfucker landing hits left and right, accurate, centre-of-mass, it'd be a problem when the other guys started putting on vests. but they aren't. they're wasting and missing 90% of the time. its much more important they aint exhausted & dont need resupplied as often
"Stopping power" is another consideration I forgot to mention. I agree the difference is exaggerated. If you need to stop a guy right away, you need to hit the heart/aorta or central nervous system. Smaller caliber makes it easier and offers more chances to followup if you don't score a critical hit. There's recent Ukraine footage of a trench raid and the camera guy has no trouble downing people in plate carriers and helmets with what looks like a 5.56 rifle.
also the dogmatism about "stopping" being turning a guy into hamburger, while i suspect a good majority of folks are out of action with less than (immediately) fatal injuries
Yeah, stopping power is fudd bs. All that matters is that the round can penetrate in to the vitals at whatever distance you're shooting. Pragmatically everyone just needs to stop worrying about it - if you're carrying a rifle you're most likely going to be killed with artillery or machine gun fire before you even get a chance to deploy the hyper-optimized rifle you can't get parts or ammo for, so just relax, get an AR without any weird internals, and use M193
Aside from a few very recent and expensive helmets with heavy up-armor plates helmets won't stop rifle fire of any caliber. You might get exceptions at long ranges and funny angles but within 100m the helmet isn't going to stop a rifle. It's primarily to protect you from shrapnel, spall, and artillery fragments. Plates are cool but they only cover part of your chest and while getting hit in the guts or pelvis might not kill you quite as instantly you're still most likely done with your fighting days, assuming you don't bleed out.
I'm under the impression that like 90% of infantry fire is suppressing fire.
I was positive the new caliber was dead when I saw they were using a bimetallic cartridge. Galvanic corrosion aside, that’s adding an incredible amount of cost and complexity to a supply chain that already can’t even supply the ukrofash with enough artillery. Granted, there are a ton of small-arms ammunition manufacturers in the US, but approximately none of them will be able to produce a round that complicated.
It's great, isn't it? The army has a mature, reliable weapons platform that can do almost everything, and infatry rifles are less important than ever, so they're switching to a fiddly expensive brand new design they'll have trouble feeding! Yay!
This was helpful, I have been thinking about getting a smaller caliber rifle. Only really shot .338 and .50 before.
I don't know anybody with a 5.56 AK to compare against AR-15 though
I haven't shot a 5.56 or 5.54 AK but I did recently get to shoot a 7.62x39 AKM clone. It was very cool, but I'd stick with an AR-15 style platform. AR-15 is far more modular, customizable, and ubiquitous. Also, ergonomics and heat. Hanguard got really hot from the piston system after one mag. Can't do a C-clamp grip with AK iron sights.
I shoot my buddies 101 every other week. It's extremely loud. Like, when we start shooting everyone else at the range snaps their necks over to see what the hell is going on. Zero perceptible recoil tho, it literally feels like shooting a .22. I bet they are amazing in full auto.
However, if you take the muzzle brake off, fixing the noise issue, the recoil becomes a problem. It's still mild, but it feels like it's almost entirely turned into muzzle flip. Making the gun hard to control.
Also, accessories are very expensive. Even basic stuff like, an mlok handguard is a good chunk of $100. The guns don't function properly unless you get the expensive $35-40 mags either. And you have to buy expensive extras to get basic functionality like an optics rail. Plus the guns are really expensive for some reason. Double the cost of an AR of similar quality.
The ergos are also terrible. Like, you can't chamber a round with the safety on, you have to shift your grip to manipulate the fire selector, if you fumble the mag insertion you can cause the gun to jam, you have to reach around the gun to reload, you have to use a riser on your optic or else you have to hold the gun weird to not be blocking the sights with your hand, etc.
They look cool tho.
Plus the guns are really expensive for some reason. Double the cost of an AR of similar quality.
There are an enormous number of small machine shops in the US that make AR parts as contractors for various arms companies, who in turn have contracts with the military or other buyers. With so many shops turning out parts supply is rarely an issue, shortages are rare, and you can slap together parts from different shops to make a functioning rifles.
On the other hand there are far fewer shops building AKs.
Just basic supply and demand - Everyone makes AR parts and everyone knows how to make AR parts so prices stay low and availability stays high. AKs are a niche luxury product.
If you're in the US get an AR-15. Parts and magazine inter-compatibility is far more important than anything else no matter what nerds with 6k rifles say. If you're not in the US get whatever the most common pattern of local rifle is.
You can have the most comfortable rifle in the world that fits your hands perfectly and it won't matter at all if you can't find ammo, magazines, and parts for it if things go to shit. People also don't consider that you really, really want to be able to share mags with your comrades when shit goes south.
I probably wouldn't want to shoot a 308 continuously all day, but it's far from hard shooting. Nothing on a shotgun or anything. Like I wind up with some red marks on my shoulder after a couple of hours and a couple hundred rounds through an AR10 with a rock hard stock.
To be fair, it could have been a gas tuning issue, and a lack of familiarity on my part. I was shooting other ppl's AR-10s. If one could tune the system so the buffer isn't slamming the back of the tube, it would be nicer, but I'd prefer an overgassed AR-15 to an AR-10, and it's what I would go for in a fight or even a survival hunting situation.
Ah, yeah, the buffer slamming wouldn't be fun. I tend toward captive springs.
one of the reasons I hate Americans is how they want to be special and have a bunch of different measurements.
.45 (inch) ACP, but will use 9mm. .223 and 5.56 are nearly identical but if you mix up the two in the wrong gun, say goodbye to your hands. JUST BE NORMAL
Nah, it's been decades since swapping .223 and 5.56 was a problem. Any .223 or 5.56 gun made since the 90s will handle either just fine. You have to be a little bit more careful with 7.62x51 NATO guns because .308 is loaded hotter and can damage a 7.62x51 NATO gun, but again in modern guns it's unlikely to cause a catastrophic failure.
I forgot about penetration. For hard stuff like body armor plates, speed is the main factor for penetration. There's a video out there of 55gr M193 FMJ ammo penetrating HESCO "special threat" plate, where even heavier M855 green tip "soft penetrator" got stopped. For soft barriers like drywall, wood, foliage, glass, soft metal like most parts of automobiles, bookcases, heavier ammo will penetrate deeper.
Nothing reliably penetrates level III or higher armor. M2 Black Tip rounds can penetrate level III, but then you have to find enough M2 Black Tip in the wild. But aside from that one specific round i'm not aware of any intermediate or rifle round that can pen level III or better armor. Just keep shooting until they fall down.
The first gun you get should be a basic AR-15 with a reliable red dot
Then you get a hand gun, and the best one-size-fits-all handgun is a glock-17. Good ergo, good quality, wide parts availability, wide magazine availability.
Then you can get whatever else you think is cool, or just buy ammo.
Make sure you've got the important stuff, though - A good quality sling for the AR, a bunch of good quality magazines that you've tested to make sure they feed reliably, secure storage for your guns, a good holster and a shooting belt for your sidearm, at minimum a chest rig for magazines for your rifle, a real big-kids first aid kit with hemostatic dressings and a tourniquet, some way to carry at least 3l of water around with you, good close toed boots or hiking shoes. Just having a rifle isn't going to do you any good if you don't have good shoes. The accessories are important, too, and the cost adds up even if you're sourcing surplus or used gear.
Pretty good advice. I basically did that but got the G19 instead of 17. I think a defensive long gun needs a light as well.
This kind of advice seems to focus on SHTF open carry, but, honestly, I think comfortable everyday conceal carry gear is more important, even in a SHTF scenario it would be wise not to draw attention by open-carrying. I think most threats we face now and in the near future are best addressed by conceal carry. Pepper spray is the first and foremost thing, more important than a gun, more useful, more versatile for threatening situations that are not apparently deadly force, more accessible, less liability. Pocket flashlight with a momentary switch are very handy and very important for identifying what is and isn't a threat. If one does decide to carry a gun, get a size and holster setup that one would be comfortable carrying every day, because it's not providing anything by being left at home because it's too inconvenient to wear.
Strong agree on pepper-spray. it's so much better than a gun in most situations. Also strong agree on having a good weapon light for your rifle and a good flashlight for day to day stuff.
If you think .308 is too much recoil and it makes it unpleasant to shoot, it's 100% a skill issue. Not to say you suck if you have a problem with it, but literally it is only a problem if you are holding the rifle wrong. Even slightly wrong and it's a problem. So train more, basically. It's easy to get bad habits when you only shoot 5.56.
The extra weight of ammo and the rifle itself is the problem, not the recoil. At any reasonable combat range, .308 has little advantage over 5.56. In combat, you absolutely need at least one person with something in .308, either a dmr or a machine gun (ideally both), but for the majority of your people 5.56 is far superior.
This is good information to have, but the fundamental question is "what do you think you might use this gun for?"
