If you take a close read of marx I think he still thinks communism is enviable, but as I hope you know marx isn't always consistent he sometimes even contradicts him self a lot, I still think he believes it even if it isn't stated in the way he crafts his arguments that.

The argument is that if humanity is to persist they will tend towards communism by the very nature of class antagonism, but he is clear that in any engagement the proletariat can lose and he would surely agree that humanity can go extinct, with that being made much easier by war, such as revolutionary war. There is no magic force from the future pulling us toward it, there is only what people tend to do in certain positions.

But also you probley where not alive their was an entire thing in the 1950-1960 from hal draper, he translated a whole mess of early bolshveck writing and he's kinda at the center of that debate at that time.

Yup, I have zero awareness of any of that.

As far as the Trotsky goes he's a dumb ass for trying to send russian speakers to soviets to overthrow the goverment, this is were the stalinist accuse him of being a fascist sympathetic which is a causality of the split.

I will again remind you there is no such thing as a Stalinist, but beyond that let me say Trotsky obviously is not a fascist sympathizer. He is, on the otherhand, an active collaborator with just about any force of reaction whose ear he could pull (even the fucking HUAC!) and the more I read about it the more catastrophic the destruction caused by the opposition bloc seems.

I take the orthodox position that russia could not get the goods because it wasn't a mature captilist power all bets are off after the German revolution dosent work for me.

You won't get very far with classical Marxism. No one will tell you Russia wasn't disadvantaged for being a feudal backwater, but classical Marxism doesn't account for imperial exploitation and therefore does not understand that revolution is wildly unlikely to ever be feasible outside of the third world. Given these facts, Tsarist Russia was one of the least disadvantaged places socialism could take hold in.

You will be waiting for Godot if you are trying to get a socialist revolution whose popular basis is the labor aristocracy.

All the rest of this aside I really don't care either way what I'm trying to do is get people to stop fetishism for the soviets because my generation did it with trotsky

These two are not remotely similar. The Soviet Union was a socialist project, Trotsky was a wrecker and a useful idiot of perhaps the highest degree in world history. Weeping over a do-nothing right-collaborator is not a good use of time. The Soviets should be criticized (and I do have concrete criticisms), but they give you something to learn from beyond a personal level in a way that Trotsky is not because they have the distinction of having ever succeeded at doing something worthwhile, whereas Trotsky's greatest claim to fame is merely helping that at one point before trying to destroy it over sour grapes. The history of Trotskyists in the US (at least that I know of) is one of useful idiocy verging on functioning as controlled opposition.

All I want to really say is we need to rethink we can't use the bolshvek model here in the states, we need to pull from the past but we can't just reproduce the same structure we can't just import anymore, matter of fact we need the young leftist to learn from our mistakes please I am almost begging.

Of course we can't import it. It's possible some of these conversations hit on your learned associations pretty hard and they distort your view a little. I believe we should broadly embrace Soviet history and learn from it just as we should the history of Cuba, Albania, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, China, Laos, Korea, Burkina Faso, and so on. Very few people are mono-maniacal about the Soviets, it's just that Stalin was especially important and also especially vilified by liberals, like Mao, and so merits more extensive argument than, say, Thomas Sankara, who they hadn't even heard of and thereby haven't been engaged in smearing.

I have every intention of learning from your generation's mistakes, but to me that means recognizing American imperialism as the foremost force that I, as an American, should seek to oppose.