The Heresy was an event that crippled the Imperium and it revolved primarily around the SM.
They're rare enough that a single digit number of them showing up for a major fight is exciting and inspiring for the human soldiers, because Space Marines are more celebrity icons of their faith worshipped as literal angels by the public than they are an effective fighting force
Before the Heresy they were fielded as full standing armies, which was extremely wasteful and clearly ended poorly. Afterwards they basically become a footnote, being fragmented into tiny fiefs barred from ever having more than 1,000 members each. Basically all of the post-Heresy expansion and maintenance of the Imperium was done by mundane humans fielding shittons of tanks.
Do you have a source to back that claim?
That's just a collective commentary on the lore, there's no one place to find it. The rarity of Space Marines is brought up pretty regularly but also it's just crunching out the numbers between the ~1,000,000 Space Marines vs the ~20,000,000,000,000+ Imperial Guard, and the commentary on their effectiveness is just commentary on how frequently they eat absolute shit and prove less effective as a fighting force than humans. For example, the Battle of Macragge seeing the Ultramarines present run off and corner themselves and get completely wiped out, while the Imperial Navy won the war in space and the Planetary Defense Force won the war on the ground without the Ultramarines.
Before the Heresy they were fielded as full standing armies, which was extremely wasteful and clearly ended poorly
Apparently, not because of a lack of effectiveness, which is what doesn't make sense.
Afterwards they basically become a footnote
Do you have a source to back this claim?
being fragmented into tiny fiefs barred from ever having more than 1,000 members each
IIRC there are as many of them post-Heresy as pre-Heresy. About 2 million, including all of the renegades and Chaos-aligned ones..
That's just a collective commentary on the lore, there's no one place to find it
I'm sorry, but it sounds like this is just your headcanon that is not supported by the official material. With these standards, I can make up my own setting and present it as 40k 'as it should be'.
The rarity of Space Marines is brought up pretty regularly
They did not become rarer post-Heresy. They got more fragmented.
and the commentary on their effectiveness is just commentary on how frequently they eat absolute shit and prove less effective as a fighting force than humans
Are you claiming that there are no examples of the opposite?
Apparently, not because of a lack of effectiveness, which is what doesn't make sense.
Pre-heresy they were fielded as infantry alongside tanks, in Imperial Guard numbers. Post-heresy they always get fielded with fewer Space Marines than a single Guard regiment does tanks, and usually in smaller numbers than a Guard armored regiment fields baneblades.
Do you have a source to back this claim?
Have you ever actually read any of the lore? This is all really basic stuff. "Space Marines are so rare as to be materially irrelevant" is the coldest take there is: they're outnumbered 1,000 to 1 by entire planets, tens of billions to one by Guardsmen, millions to one by main battle tanks, etc. The scale of the setting clashing with the lore about how few Space Marines there are is an established and known thing, there's frequent lines about how they're so rare that they're basically considered mythical, a single company of 100 joining a crusade force of millions is considered a very big deal (and then the lore makes sure to write them dying stupidly to accomplish nothing, because lmao), major wars for critical planets almost never see involvement from Space Marines because there aren't enough Space Marines for every major conflict to even have one, etc.
Pre-heresy they were fielded as infantry alongside tanks, in Imperial Guard numbers
Each legion was about 100 000 to 200 000 marines (low end being Raven Guard with 80 000 and Thousand Sons with 85 000, high end being Ultramarines with 250 000). There were about 2 million of them in total, i.e. about the same number as post-Heresy if we count the renegades.
Have you ever actually read any of the lore?
I'm going to ask you to not escalate this into hostility.
"Space Marines are so rare as to be materially irrelevant" is the coldest take there is
They were just as rare pre-Heresy and during Heresy. Evidently, this argument doesn't work.
The scale of the setting clashing with the lore about how few Space Marines there are is an established and known thing
Which just reinforces my original point that SM make no sense in a setting that takes itself seriously. There is no point in making what is essentially a much more expensive and worse tank.
there's frequent lines about how they're so rare that they're basically considered mythical, a single company of 100 joining a crusade force of millions is considered a very big deal
Given that they were not more numerous pre-Heresy, and, in fact, were much more concentrated, this argument should apply even more to that era, but, evidently, it does not.
Each legion was about 100 000 to 200 000 marines (low end being Raven Guard with 80 000 and Thousand Sons with 85 000, high end being Ultramarines with 250 000).
That's roughly two orders of magnitude larger than the absolute most any post-Heresy chapter can theoretically field, and three orders of magnitude larger than what they actually do field at the very most.
The concept was always wasteful and dumb, but at least initially it was more "what if a normal army, but they're all supersoldiers in heavy power armor with rocket launching machine guns?" instead of "what if like three or four guys showed up on their own without really working with anyone else, but they have armor and stuff and they look cool so everyone clapped even though all the real fighting was done by tens of thousands of tanks and several million human soldiers?"
They were also pushing forwards much smaller fronts as part of a much smaller Imperium, against mostly scattered and poorly equipped enemies. They don't really make sense in that context either, but it's still very different from the much, much larger Imperium closer to M41 where there are a billion worlds and mature, organized industrial war machines churning out the tanks and guns that the Imperium relies on, and in that context the Space Marines are almost entirely absent.
Which just reinforces my original point that SM make no sense in a setting that takes itself seriously. There is no point in making what is essentially a much more expensive and worse tank.
Yeah, Space Marines are dumb as written, but the setting does at least acknowledge that all the major work is, in fact, done by the infinitely larger forces of the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard even if it still barks and claps like a trained seal when some Space Marines bother to show up somewhere to take 90% casualties while trying to knock out a single fortified position and then run away because they took losses that will take decades for them to replace.
Pre-Heresy is very silly and basically explained by the Emperor being sort of a self-aggrandizing dipshit who wanted his special good boy army of supersoldiers to go off and wow a bunch of scattered planets into thinking he was cool, before he got to sit for 10,000 years with no one to talk to except whatever random psyker his psyker phone dialed up that year (that last bit is half a joke, but possibly at least partially canon).
That's roughly two orders of magnitude larger than the absolute most any post-Heresy chapter can theoretically field
And? There were in total the same amount of them. What is the significance of the fact that overarching organisations of SM became smaller?
Pre-Heresy is very silly and basically explained by the Emperor being sort of a self-aggrandizing dipshit who wanted his special good boy army of supersoldiers to go off and wow a bunch of scattered planets into thinking he was coo
Is there any acknowledgement in-setting that this idea makes no sense?
And? There were in total the same amount of them. What is the significance of the fact that overarching organisations of SM became smaller?
Because they were showing up as actual armies as part of a campaign that was fighting on few enough fronts for them to actually be able to show up a lot of the time? They were a much larger and more relevant part of the Imperial war machine at that point than they were millennia later after the Imperium grew through Rogue Traders and further crusades, industrial worlds were built up, and forge worlds were recovered.
Is there any acknowledgement in-setting that this idea makes no sense?
No, just like there's no acknowledgement that orks are very silly comic relief characters. The setting is written extremely drily, even when it's talking about the extra big linebacker mutants with redundant spleens (actual lore) who drool acid (actual lore), eat their enemies' brains to gain their knowledge (actual lore), have photochromic skin that makes their complexion instantly adapt to whatever light level they're in so they don't have to worry about sunburns or vitamin D (actual lore), and fight with chainsaws and rocket launching machine guns. Even if Space Marine fanboys have tried making them less silly in more recent editions they're still an absolute shitpost of a concept, and the fact that everyone in-universe thinks they're really cool and invincible and holy even though they're these dorky dipshits who constantly lose all the time is an amazing gag.
But all that is kind of getting away from my original point, which was that the Imperium itself does "just make tanks instead," and it makes absolutely absurd numbers of them because of its huge scale. Space Marines only get made by the tiny independent Space Marine chapter-states that are allied with but entirely independent of the Imperium, and in the overarching scale of the setting they don't ever really show up or do much of anything compared to mundane human armies despite their prominence in the lore.
Because they were showing up as actual armies as part of a campaign that was fighting on few enough fronts for them to actually be able to show up a lot of the time?
A bunch of separate forces, stationed in different places, etc. are going to be able to participate in a wider range of conflicts.
If you are making a claim that there are fewer conflicts in 40k than there are in pre-Heresy era, I'm going to ask for a source.
No
In which case it seems very much like what you said was just your headcanon that is not supported by the official material.
Even if Space Marine fanboys have tried making them less silly in more recent editions they're still an absolute shitpost of a concept
I.e. they fit much better with the pre-3rd edition version of the setting? I agree. And my point has been from the start that they make no sense in a setting that takes itself seriously.
But all that is kind of getting away from my original point, which was that the Imperium itself does "just make tanks instead,"
But it doesn't. In both the pre-Heresy and 40k eras they do make more SM, and even develop the Primaris version instead of just using the resources for more actually useful stuff.
Space Marines only get made by the tiny independent Space Marine chapter-states that are allied with but entirely independent of the Imperium
Their relation to the wider Imperium is closer to being pseudo-feudal vassals of the Imperial government. I wouldn't call them 'entirely independent'.
OTOH, this is not particularly relevant to the topic, and is more of a nitpick.
The Heresy was an event that crippled the Imperium and it revolved primarily around the SM.
Do you have a source to back that claim?
Before the Heresy they were fielded as full standing armies, which was extremely wasteful and clearly ended poorly. Afterwards they basically become a footnote, being fragmented into tiny fiefs barred from ever having more than 1,000 members each. Basically all of the post-Heresy expansion and maintenance of the Imperium was done by mundane humans fielding shittons of tanks.
That's just a collective commentary on the lore, there's no one place to find it. The rarity of Space Marines is brought up pretty regularly but also it's just crunching out the numbers between the ~1,000,000 Space Marines vs the ~20,000,000,000,000+ Imperial Guard, and the commentary on their effectiveness is just commentary on how frequently they eat absolute shit and prove less effective as a fighting force than humans. For example, the Battle of Macragge seeing the Ultramarines present run off and corner themselves and get completely wiped out, while the Imperial Navy won the war in space and the Planetary Defense Force won the war on the ground without the Ultramarines.
Apparently, not because of a lack of effectiveness, which is what doesn't make sense.
Do you have a source to back this claim?
IIRC there are as many of them post-Heresy as pre-Heresy. About 2 million, including all of the renegades and Chaos-aligned ones..
I'm sorry, but it sounds like this is just your headcanon that is not supported by the official material. With these standards, I can make up my own setting and present it as 40k 'as it should be'.
They did not become rarer post-Heresy. They got more fragmented.
Are you claiming that there are no examples of the opposite?
Pre-heresy they were fielded as infantry alongside tanks, in Imperial Guard numbers. Post-heresy they always get fielded with fewer Space Marines than a single Guard regiment does tanks, and usually in smaller numbers than a Guard armored regiment fields baneblades.
Have you ever actually read any of the lore? This is all really basic stuff. "Space Marines are so rare as to be materially irrelevant" is the coldest take there is: they're outnumbered 1,000 to 1 by entire planets, tens of billions to one by Guardsmen, millions to one by main battle tanks, etc. The scale of the setting clashing with the lore about how few Space Marines there are is an established and known thing, there's frequent lines about how they're so rare that they're basically considered mythical, a single company of 100 joining a crusade force of millions is considered a very big deal (and then the lore makes sure to write them dying stupidly to accomplish nothing, because lmao), major wars for critical planets almost never see involvement from Space Marines because there aren't enough Space Marines for every major conflict to even have one, etc.
Each legion was about 100 000 to 200 000 marines (low end being Raven Guard with 80 000 and Thousand Sons with 85 000, high end being Ultramarines with 250 000). There were about 2 million of them in total, i.e. about the same number as post-Heresy if we count the renegades.
I'm going to ask you to not escalate this into hostility.
They were just as rare pre-Heresy and during Heresy. Evidently, this argument doesn't work.
Which just reinforces my original point that SM make no sense in a setting that takes itself seriously. There is no point in making what is essentially a much more expensive and worse tank.
Given that they were not more numerous pre-Heresy, and, in fact, were much more concentrated, this argument should apply even more to that era, but, evidently, it does not.
That's roughly two orders of magnitude larger than the absolute most any post-Heresy chapter can theoretically field, and three orders of magnitude larger than what they actually do field at the very most.
The concept was always wasteful and dumb, but at least initially it was more "what if a normal army, but they're all supersoldiers in heavy power armor with rocket launching machine guns?" instead of "what if like three or four guys showed up on their own without really working with anyone else, but they have armor and stuff and they look cool so everyone clapped even though all the real fighting was done by tens of thousands of tanks and several million human soldiers?"
They were also pushing forwards much smaller fronts as part of a much smaller Imperium, against mostly scattered and poorly equipped enemies. They don't really make sense in that context either, but it's still very different from the much, much larger Imperium closer to M41 where there are a billion worlds and mature, organized industrial war machines churning out the tanks and guns that the Imperium relies on, and in that context the Space Marines are almost entirely absent.
Yeah, Space Marines are dumb as written, but the setting does at least acknowledge that all the major work is, in fact, done by the infinitely larger forces of the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard even if it still barks and claps like a trained seal when some Space Marines bother to show up somewhere to take 90% casualties while trying to knock out a single fortified position and then run away because they took losses that will take decades for them to replace.
Pre-Heresy is very silly and basically explained by the Emperor being sort of a self-aggrandizing dipshit who wanted his special good boy army of supersoldiers to go off and wow a bunch of scattered planets into thinking he was cool, before he got to sit for 10,000 years with no one to talk to except whatever random psyker his psyker phone dialed up that year (that last bit is half a joke, but possibly at least partially canon).
And? There were in total the same amount of them. What is the significance of the fact that overarching organisations of SM became smaller?
Is there any acknowledgement in-setting that this idea makes no sense?
Because they were showing up as actual armies as part of a campaign that was fighting on few enough fronts for them to actually be able to show up a lot of the time? They were a much larger and more relevant part of the Imperial war machine at that point than they were millennia later after the Imperium grew through Rogue Traders and further crusades, industrial worlds were built up, and forge worlds were recovered.
No, just like there's no acknowledgement that orks are very silly comic relief characters. The setting is written extremely drily, even when it's talking about the extra big linebacker mutants with redundant spleens (actual lore) who drool acid (actual lore), eat their enemies' brains to gain their knowledge (actual lore), have photochromic skin that makes their complexion instantly adapt to whatever light level they're in so they don't have to worry about sunburns or vitamin D (actual lore), and fight with chainsaws and rocket launching machine guns. Even if Space Marine fanboys have tried making them less silly in more recent editions they're still an absolute shitpost of a concept, and the fact that everyone in-universe thinks they're really cool and invincible and holy even though they're these dorky dipshits who constantly lose all the time is an amazing gag.
But all that is kind of getting away from my original point, which was that the Imperium itself does "just make tanks instead," and it makes absolutely absurd numbers of them because of its huge scale. Space Marines only get made by the tiny independent Space Marine chapter-states that are allied with but entirely independent of the Imperium, and in the overarching scale of the setting they don't ever really show up or do much of anything compared to mundane human armies despite their prominence in the lore.
A bunch of separate forces, stationed in different places, etc. are going to be able to participate in a wider range of conflicts.
If you are making a claim that there are fewer conflicts in 40k than there are in pre-Heresy era, I'm going to ask for a source.
In which case it seems very much like what you said was just your headcanon that is not supported by the official material.
I.e. they fit much better with the pre-3rd edition version of the setting? I agree. And my point has been from the start that they make no sense in a setting that takes itself seriously.
But it doesn't. In both the pre-Heresy and 40k eras they do make more SM, and even develop the Primaris version instead of just using the resources for more actually useful stuff.
Their relation to the wider Imperium is closer to being pseudo-feudal vassals of the Imperial government. I wouldn't call them 'entirely independent'.
OTOH, this is not particularly relevant to the topic, and is more of a nitpick.