Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results?
literally the consent "isn't there somebody you forgot to ask?" meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn't recognize them for doing that and they're just like "Well, shucks. I guess we're going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren't ready to accept us yet!"
That's all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn't matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That's what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don't even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works ..
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn't have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it's why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is an ongoing international conflict between Russia, alongside Russian-backed separatists, and Ukraine, which began in February 2014.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
This is just copium. Whatever you believe, the result was a fascist Ukranian state that supports literal Nazis shelling civilians. What were they supposed to do, vote harder? Oh right, their voting rights were suppressed and their political parties banned from running in elections. At a certain point, when faced with violent suppression, violence become your only option.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
You're the one who brought up violence. I'm simply trying to present the world to you as it is instead of through the filter of liberal propoganda that you so happily slurp up daily. That boot is so deep down your throat, maybe you should start an only fans.
You'd have to look at the situation from before the war started, like all the way back to the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and the 2004 Ukranian color revolution. NATO instigated the 2014 coup in Ukraine, which made relations between Ukraine and Russia much more tense. That's when Ukraine began more earnestly shelling the Donbas region as well, which is a region of people who've always been more sympathetic towards Russia. The residents there even speak Russian. The situation became more tense to the point Ukraine was floating NATO membership, which would have resulted in Russia being more surrounded than they ever have.
Russian troops could leave, and that would result in the same situation as before and would inevitably erupt into conflict again. NATO encirclement, ethnically Russian people getting shelled, Nazi Ukrainian troops in the region, Ukraine denying self-determination for people within its own borders. It would still be a geopolitical mess with potential for another war.
Russia has in fact called for ceasefires and peace talks multiple times already. Early on in the war Ukraine seemed willing to have talks, but NATO pressured them out of it. The situation now is that despite Russia calling for ceasefires, the position of the US and other NATO allies is that no ceasefire will be accepted unless Russia completely leaves the region. That's pigheaded and wrong. Any stop to the fighting should be accepted. That means NATO is calling for an extension to the war, not Russia.
The best possible way for this conflict to end is Ukraine cuts its losses, Russia annexes Donbas and Luhansk, and the fighting stops. Normal, average working class people are harmed as long as this conflict keeps going and as leftists we should be in favor of war ending, not persisting. Ukraine losing territory and the fight ending is a massively better situation than the fight becoming another decades long quagmire like Afghanistan or Syria.
Classic, Russia acts like a petulant child not accepting the fact that it can't live up to the glory days when it has complete dominance over it's neighbors so it manufacturers a reason why it must invade a country and blame NATO because the Ukrainian get support from territorial aggression. Allowing them to keep their holdings is the same as appeasement a bad idea in front of a conscript army. Please explain why Russia dashed for kyiv of they "just wanted to annex a bit of the east" lol u dummy. Listening to you is like being at the end of the human centipede Putin's at the front and I'm at the back.
Allowing them to keep their holdings is the same as appeasement a bad idea in front of a conscript army
Yeah it is appeasement. Is open warfare better than appeasement? Should they fight until the last Ukrainian? No, that's awful. War between capitalist states is not the realm of the working class or poor people. The victims of this war are people caught in the crossfire, Ukrainian, Russian, or otherwise, and ending the war even through territorial concession would be better than what's happening now.
I think Russia made a dash to Kyiv to flank the Ukranian army from mobilizing in the east so that Russian bases and supply routes could be established, but I have not followed troop movements much since last year. Russia made the correct assumption that Ukraine would focus most of its attention on defending the capital if it were threatened. I think that strategy worked because Russia captured not just Donbas and Lunansk, but Zaporizhzhia and Kherson as well. You've made the mistake of thinking I'm defending Russia because I explained how I see the context. Russia shouldn't have invaded, NATO shouldn't exist, the 2014 Ukranian coup shouldn't have happened, people in Donbas and Luhansk should be allowed to exercise self-determination. None of the conflict should have happened and the primary cause of the situation is, like always, neoliberal imperialism. Maybe there were non-violent ways out of this conflict, but they're all imaginary now. We live in reality.
I don't know what people want from me here. Sorry, I don't see this conflict as pure territorial expansion ordered by Putin on this basis of his moral failures or greed or whatever. Because that's not what it is, and me saying that somehow means I've got Putin whispering in my ear like a witch in Salem hearing the voice of Satan. This conflict is one resolution in a long line of unresolved conflicts going all the way back to 1991, it's more than Putin, more than even just Ukraine and Russia.
For reference, is this hegemony in the broad sense where Germany has hegemony over Munich? Or the narrower sense in which we would say the US has hegemony over Puerto Rico or France had hegemony over Burkina Faso? You've demonstrated a propensity to play fast and loose with your terms, so quippy answers aren't that helpful.
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/hegemony
Regional hegemony is a thing too it doesn't have to be global wiki says that in the first 2 sentence of the article. Putin himself said in 2022, "The era of the unipolar world order is nearing its end" hmm I wonder if that means he intends to make his own...
You're a deplorable waste of bones and organs. When this war is over and there's a well armed Nazi militia committing pogroms and wreacking havock across Europe, I hope that you'll reconsider your position.
I don't, but that won't stop you from believing whatever fantasies you find convenient. Explains a lot about how you maintain your delusional worldview.
A group that already has a presence in the UN? I was talking about how recognition works for countries. But low and behold that nuance escapes you. It's not my fault that u & 72 don't understand how international recognition and civil wars work.
It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition.
You're contradicting yourself you're contradictinnnggggg yourself hahaha it's okay to admit you exhausted your line of arguing and can't defend anything more. Come to the tankie side, it's not so bad. We're right all the time.
It's not my fault you don't know how occupation works. I'm specifically talking about a separatists Donbas that is able to fend off both Ukraine and Russia assaults could obtain recognition by the international community through securing it's borders. Of course you intentionally misunderstood what I'm saying at all times and declare victory by being a dumbass
Never met a true US civil war Confederate supporter, the south had their own government & constitution and voted to leave the union. I guess according to your logic the northern federal government was in the wrong in order to preserve the union cuz the south had elections & elections.
If Texas today had a vote to secede then they’d have absolutely every right to secede since the current electoral laws allow for the will of the people to be expressed.
The fact you didn’t stop to think about the slaves is because you’re a fucking cracker.
Which electoral law in Texas allows for this? Do you know what the supremacy clause is? Do you have a fucking Clue what you're talking about? Clearly you don't.
Hey by your criteria all you gotta do is have a vote and boom bang beyowza u gotta new country. I suppose since you're a tankie you have to pretend things like national sovereignty just doesn't exist so u can get away with invading your neighbor.
You are changing the question, since Russia's violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
Democratic legitimacy? By internationallly recognizing any group that holds elections & breaks off a country? My good man, that's a terrible idea. Having a monopoly over violence is just a prerequisite but of course you knew that already since Donbas is occupied until legally resolved via treaty.
literally the consent "isn't there somebody you forgot to ask?" meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn't recognize them for doing that and they're just like "Well, shucks. I guess we're going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren't ready to accept us yet!"
That's all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn't matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That's what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don't even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works ..
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn't have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it's why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
It wasn't a coup it was a revolution.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is an ongoing international conflict between Russia, alongside Russian-backed separatists, and Ukraine, which began in February 2014.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
This is just copium. Whatever you believe, the result was a fascist Ukranian state that supports literal Nazis shelling civilians. What were they supposed to do, vote harder? Oh right, their voting rights were suppressed and their political parties banned from running in elections. At a certain point, when faced with violent suppression, violence become your only option.
You're the one who brought up violence. I'm simply trying to present the world to you as it is instead of through the filter of liberal propoganda that you so happily slurp up daily. That boot is so deep down your throat, maybe you should start an only fans.
It's copium but it's also provably wrong; the US came out and admitted they got Porochenko elected.
but we don't keep up with geopolitics apparently, while this dude is stuck in the 70s lol 🤓
Oh 💯. I was just pointing out that the human rights abuses committed by the fascist Ukranian state are unjustifiable regardless.
You're the ones that think Russia is still a bastion of Marxism. Get a clue, the Soviet Union is gone and it's not coming back anytime soon.
Nobody here thinks that Russia is "still a bastion of Marxism". Like literally nobody. You're a real laugh.
Color me shocked. Communists support non marxist militaristic imperialism over Western economic imperialism & Capitalism wins either way.
I support an end to war and NATO instigated this war and keeps it going.
How do you figure? Despite what you say it was Russian troops crossing the border they could leave at any time.
You'd have to look at the situation from before the war started, like all the way back to the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and the 2004 Ukranian color revolution. NATO instigated the 2014 coup in Ukraine, which made relations between Ukraine and Russia much more tense. That's when Ukraine began more earnestly shelling the Donbas region as well, which is a region of people who've always been more sympathetic towards Russia. The residents there even speak Russian. The situation became more tense to the point Ukraine was floating NATO membership, which would have resulted in Russia being more surrounded than they ever have.
Russian troops could leave, and that would result in the same situation as before and would inevitably erupt into conflict again. NATO encirclement, ethnically Russian people getting shelled, Nazi Ukrainian troops in the region, Ukraine denying self-determination for people within its own borders. It would still be a geopolitical mess with potential for another war.
Russia has in fact called for ceasefires and peace talks multiple times already. Early on in the war Ukraine seemed willing to have talks, but NATO pressured them out of it. The situation now is that despite Russia calling for ceasefires, the position of the US and other NATO allies is that no ceasefire will be accepted unless Russia completely leaves the region. That's pigheaded and wrong. Any stop to the fighting should be accepted. That means NATO is calling for an extension to the war, not Russia.
The best possible way for this conflict to end is Ukraine cuts its losses, Russia annexes Donbas and Luhansk, and the fighting stops. Normal, average working class people are harmed as long as this conflict keeps going and as leftists we should be in favor of war ending, not persisting. Ukraine losing territory and the fight ending is a massively better situation than the fight becoming another decades long quagmire like Afghanistan or Syria.
Classic, Russia acts like a petulant child not accepting the fact that it can't live up to the glory days when it has complete dominance over it's neighbors so it manufacturers a reason why it must invade a country and blame NATO because the Ukrainian get support from territorial aggression. Allowing them to keep their holdings is the same as appeasement a bad idea in front of a conscript army. Please explain why Russia dashed for kyiv of they "just wanted to annex a bit of the east" lol u dummy. Listening to you is like being at the end of the human centipede Putin's at the front and I'm at the back.
Yeah it is appeasement. Is open warfare better than appeasement? Should they fight until the last Ukrainian? No, that's awful. War between capitalist states is not the realm of the working class or poor people. The victims of this war are people caught in the crossfire, Ukrainian, Russian, or otherwise, and ending the war even through territorial concession would be better than what's happening now.
I think Russia made a dash to Kyiv to flank the Ukranian army from mobilizing in the east so that Russian bases and supply routes could be established, but I have not followed troop movements much since last year. Russia made the correct assumption that Ukraine would focus most of its attention on defending the capital if it were threatened. I think that strategy worked because Russia captured not just Donbas and Lunansk, but Zaporizhzhia and Kherson as well. You've made the mistake of thinking I'm defending Russia because I explained how I see the context. Russia shouldn't have invaded, NATO shouldn't exist, the 2014 Ukranian coup shouldn't have happened, people in Donbas and Luhansk should be allowed to exercise self-determination. None of the conflict should have happened and the primary cause of the situation is, like always, neoliberal imperialism. Maybe there were non-violent ways out of this conflict, but they're all imaginary now. We live in reality.
I don't know what people want from me here. Sorry, I don't see this conflict as pure territorial expansion ordered by Putin on this basis of his moral failures or greed or whatever. Because that's not what it is, and me saying that somehow means I've got Putin whispering in my ear like a witch in Salem hearing the voice of Satan. This conflict is one resolution in a long line of unresolved conflicts going all the way back to 1991, it's more than Putin, more than even just Ukraine and Russia.
What constitutes imperialism in Russia?
Invading & Maintaining a hegemony over their neighbors.
For reference, is this hegemony in the broad sense where Germany has hegemony over Munich? Or the narrower sense in which we would say the US has hegemony over Puerto Rico or France had hegemony over Burkina Faso? You've demonstrated a propensity to play fast and loose with your terms, so quippy answers aren't that helpful.
Is that also your definition of imperialism? What do you mean by hegemony? There's only one hegemony in the world and it's the US.
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/hegemony Regional hegemony is a thing too it doesn't have to be global wiki says that in the first 2 sentence of the article. Putin himself said in 2022, "The era of the unipolar world order is nearing its end" hmm I wonder if that means he intends to make his own...
oh my god you actually linked to wikipedia you're so precious I could squeeze you
Lol you'd say a dictionary is Western propaganda. Sorry you learned English from tankie shit posts.
Can I adopt you please? I promise to feed you and brush you and take you on walks and
Only as long as I get to take a dump in your shoe.
Removed by mod
You're a deplorable waste of bones and organs. When this war is over and there's a well armed Nazi militia committing pogroms and wreacking havock across Europe, I hope that you'll reconsider your position.
Cool
Yeah we all know you think nazis are cool, that's why you suck so much
I don't, but that won't stop you from believing whatever fantasies you find convenient. Explains a lot about how you maintain your delusional worldview.
Who has the monopoly of violence in Luhansk and Donetsk currently...?
A group that already has a presence in the UN? I was talking about how recognition works for countries. But low and behold that nuance escapes you. It's not my fault that u & 72 don't understand how international recognition and civil wars work.
You're contradicting yourself you're contradictinnnggggg yourself hahaha it's okay to admit you exhausted your line of arguing and can't defend anything more. Come to the tankie side, it's not so bad. We're right all the time.
It's not my fault you don't know how occupation works. I'm specifically talking about a separatists Donbas that is able to fend off both Ukraine and Russia assaults could obtain recognition by the international community through securing it's borders. Of course you intentionally misunderstood what I'm saying at all times and declare victory by being a dumbass
But Donbass doesn't want to fight off Russia, they voted to join them, remember?
Your trolling is weak, please do better. You're entertaining but you need to step up your game.
Never met a true US civil war Confederate supporter, the south had their own government & constitution and voted to leave the union. I guess according to your logic the northern federal government was in the wrong in order to preserve the union cuz the south had elections & elections.
DID THE SLAVES VOTE IN THOSE ELECTIONS?
If Texas today had a vote to secede then they’d have absolutely every right to secede since the current electoral laws allow for the will of the people to be expressed.
The fact you didn’t stop to think about the slaves is because you’re a fucking cracker.
What does it matter if they did or not?
Which electoral law in Texas allows for this? Do you know what the supremacy clause is? Do you have a fucking Clue what you're talking about? Clearly you don't.
Much better, but you've activated my trap card
Whataboutism
Hey by your criteria all you gotta do is have a vote and boom bang beyowza u gotta new country. I suppose since you're a tankie you have to pretend things like national sovereignty just doesn't exist so u can get away with invading your neighbor.
You are changing the question, since Russia's violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
Democratic legitimacy? By internationallly recognizing any group that holds elections & breaks off a country? My good man, that's a terrible idea. Having a monopoly over violence is just a prerequisite but of course you knew that already since Donbas is occupied until legally resolved via treaty.
You think democracy is a terrible idea?
Of course they do. Libs hate democracy
Do you think every group that breaks off should be internationallly recognized dumbass? I like democracy but even the Greeks knew it has problems.