The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda - The Hill
America’s Collusion With Neo-Nazis. Neo-fascists play an important official or tolerated role in US-backed Ukraine. - The Nation
Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT - BBC
Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine - Time
The Evolution of the Far Right in Ukraine Pg 34 - Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, United States Military Academy (USMA)
Which thing was that from? Don’t feel like reading all the articles today…
The Hill, which is a very mainstream milquetoast publication in the US if you're not familiar.
They'll vehemently deny they are neo Nazis and then later on say they weren't lying because they're classical Nazis.
My dad (who's very anti-America) says that Ukraine's army is full of them.
So the fuck what if they do? America does too, and I'd want them defended from attack
Having a rat problem doesn't mean a house is run by rats, and it certainly doesn't mean I wouldn't want to stop the humans inside from being gassed
So wait in your view should there just be no intervention and russia takes Ukraine? Y'all are answering in such short glib answers like I should know your views and I'm an idiot. I see that I clearly don't see...
You're not really pro Russia here's are you? I mean sure it was red scare and such but it's definitely a far right govt no question about that.
Edit: look I can see how this just looks like sealioning ir whatever but I'm trying to understand your actual viewpoint, and the other truths that i haven't been aware of
An intervention was absolutely necessary...Russia's intervention in Ukraine that is, to prevent the genocide that the Kiev Nazi regime planned to carry out in Donbass. Whether or not Russia ends up taking all of Ukraine is up to Ukraine, or rather its western puppetmasters. The more they refuse to see reason the worse the outcome will be for them.
Case in point: if there had never been the coup in 2014 Ukraine would still have Crimea. If Ukraine had abided by the Minsk agreements they would have lost Crimea but still have the Donbass. If they had not pulled out of the Istanbul negotiations last year they would have lost the Donbass but still have everything else.
Every time they try to screw Russia over they dig the hole deeper for themselves. So yes, if they keep escalating and refusing to negotiate then Russia will have to keep taking more and more of Ukraine to ensure its security. The longer the range of the weapons that the West gives the Kiev regime the further Russia will have to push the border. Actions have consequences.
The nature of Russia's government is wholly irrelevant to all of this. Any government that looks out for Russia's vital national interests and security would be compelled to do the same. We're not pro-Russia, we're anti-fascist and anti-imperialist. In fact we are more pro-Ukraine than those who cheerlead them and egg them on to keep commiting national suicide.
Now if the West truly cared about Ukraine they would stop sending weapons, which only lead to more Ukrainians dying and more of Ukraine being destroyed, and start pressuring them to negotiate immediately.
Of course everyone understands that this is not about Ukraine, they are just the hapless proxy, hence the West will continue to push Ukraine further toward its own destruction... It's tragic but that's how it is.
There. Was that enough explanation for you or was that too short and glib as well?
I think that most of that is entirely fair.
yes, if they keep escalating and refusing to negotiate then Russia will have to keep taking more and more of Ukraine to ensure its security.
I mean this doesn't sound like anything other than shut up and do what Russia says or keep getting the stick because:
The nature of Russia's government is wholly irrelevant to all of this. Any government that looks out for Russia's vital national interests and security would be compelled to do the same.
Okay but shouldn't the same logic follow for Ukraine?
In fact we are more pro-Ukraine than those who cheerlead them and egg them on to keep commiting national suicide.
This is about as sincere as and the same logic as Republicans that want to make abortions illegal because "black people get more abortions then white people, do you really support eugenics?".
You're assuming that Ukraine doesn't benefit from and won't end the war on their terms, which with it obviously being a proxy war, i find it hard to believe that Russia will 'win'
I sincerely appreciate you sharing the general beliefs, I just can't make that last leap in logic that you are suggesting for the above reasons.
"shouldn't the same logic follow for Ukraine?"
It should but due to the fact that its current government is a puppet government controlled by the West (not to mention full of fanatical ideologues who, to put it mildly, are not on good terms with reality), it does not act in the best interests of Ukraine. The national interest of Ukraine lies in having good relations with Russia. Pre-2014 Ukraine was attempting to balance between Russia and the West, which was a pretty lucrative arrangement for them. They were getting to play the role of a bridge between two very important economies, trading with both and collecting all kinds of transit fees such as on gas.
Unfortunately the US and EU were not satisfied with that and they overthrew that government and installed a fanatically russophobic regime into power that proceeded to destroy Ukraine's economic viability by irrationally cutting ties with Russia despite the fact that the Ukrainian manufacturing economy had been designed since Soviet times to be intertwined with that of Russia. Then they proceeded to launch a brutal eight year war on their own people simply because those people demanded autonomy and protection from the discriminatory laws that the new - illegitimate - government was passing. None of this benefited Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.
But this is what happens when a country loses its sovereignty, and worse, lets the lunatics take over the asylum. We can argue all day about whether this is fair but the reality is, a country like Ukraine has to take into account the interests of its larger and more powerful neighbor. It is highly unwise to provoke and poke at someone stronger than you until they snap. It is also a fact that Ukraine would be better off if they stopped fighting. It may be hard to swallow for the nationalists but they could start to recover economically and more importantly people would stop dying. Ukraine may dream of ending the war on their terms but that is not happening. There is no indication that that is even remotely possible. At some point you have to cut your losses.
So wait in your view should there just be no intervention and russia takes Ukraine? Y'all are answering in such short glib answers like I should know your views and I'm an idiot. I see that I clearly don't see...
You're not really pro Russia here's are you? I mean sure it was red scare and such but it's definitely a far right govt no question about that.
This situation goes back to 2014. Also the Ukrainian government killed 14,000 citizens in the Donbass prior to 2022.
What is your understanding of the war? I'm asking in good faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%932022)
It's on Wikipedia even. Plus there are sources discussing this above. I expect you won't respond to this.
Why wouldn't I respond?
Your source says that Russia was the aggressor, and it absolutely does not say that Ukraine killed 14000 civilians.
What do you think a civil war is?
Edit: what I said was definitely oversimplified, but many people seem to think this situation just started in 2022.
A civil war instigated by a global power is the thing we rightfully call USA evil for doing.
Why is there a segment of online commies who are being so fucking weird about this?
Do you acknowledge that the Russian state sucks ass and that Putin should jump off a building?
Why are you coming to us and trying to tell us what to think? Your worldview is no different than the US state department, yet you're smug about it.
The vast majority of the global south shares our position. You're not as informed as you think you are. In a few months you'll be cheerleading an intervention in West Africa to 'stop autocracy'.
Be gone, lib.
Ah yes, my world view that USA is the greatest threat to every man, woman, and child on planet is exactly the same as the US state department. You've got me pegged, my dude.
You're obviously not interested in an honest conversation, so have fun with whatever culty rabbit hole you've fallen into.
Communists who share the same world view based on a 200 year long intellectual body of knowledge agreeing on situation in Ukraine = culty rabbit hole
You, who's opinion lines up with the US State Department = the one true leftist
Are you saying all True Communists agree with lemmygrad's take on this?
Repeat "US State Department" three more times and I legally have to admit that I'm CIA.
I don't really care about "True Communists." I care about actually existing communists.
I wouldn't be suprised if your ideas on AES line up with the state department too, and not because i or anyone thinks you're in the CIA
I don't really care about "True Communists." I care about actually existing communists.
I don't want to be mean, but that's very unintentionally funny (presumedly. You don't seem like the joking type).
I wouldn't be suprised if your ideas on AES line up with the state department too, and not because i or anyone thinks you're in the CIA
Are you American?
It is a joke. Both of my comments have been jokes mocking you. But obviously, I'm not the joking type, unlike you who is a laugh riot
You're doing that thing where you're implying I'm bad at something I haven't even claimed to be trying. It's incredibly low tier bullying. Please do better.
What are you even trying to do in this thread? Because all you're succeding at is being an aggreived nerd.
You're telling people we don't understand what your positions are. You're saying im "doing a thing" based on something youre not doing. If we're so wrong about your intentions just say what they are. What is your position?
You've added nothing to this conversation, despite what you think.
You’re obviously not interested in an honest conversation, so have fun with whatever culty rabbit hole you’ve fallen into.
You're the clown ass who keeps saying 'source' to things that have been sourced here numerous times. You've provided no sources to counter our claims.
Is this what you think a productive conversation is? Smugly talking down to those you disagree with while providing no evidence, then accuse them of not wanting to have a conversation?
We tried to engage with you and this is what you responded with. This is the behavior of every lib who has come on here recently.
You've added nothing to this conversation, despite what you think.
Are you a mind reader?
You're the clown ass who keeps saying 'source' to things that have been sourced here numerous times. You've provided no sources to counter our claims.
So when people make wild claims that contradict every news source available to me should I just accept it uncritically or I'm a lib?
Sourced where? Am I supposed to just magically know?
Is this what you think a productive conversation is? Smugly talking down to those you disagree with while providing no evidence, then accuse them of not wanting to have a conversation?
You essentially called me a US puppet and worse a lib, so maybe get off your pedestal.
I was fine with your Wikipedia source, but apparently you decided that was bad or something.
We tried to engage with you and this is what you responded with. This is the behavior of every lib who has come on here recently.
I tried to engage with you and was called a lib, lib.
So why did you immediately decide that I believe everything put out by the US State Department, just because I expressed the mildest exasperation at the lemmygrad discourse?
Besides, I've been very clear on USA bad, so you know that much.
I apologize for being harsh, but we have been brigaded by many people who do come and argue in bad faith.
However, simply replying 'source' to things that are sourced within this post is going to make me think you're arguing in bad faith.
What is your understanding and position on this conflict? I am asking in earnest.
My position is that Russian troops marching into Ukraine and bombing Ukrainian cities constitutes an invasion and that Ukrainians obviously have an indisputable right to defend their homes.
History didn't start in 2022, but the invasion is a very clear escalation that is killing thousands of people. It's fucking inexcusable.
Putin is a psychopath billionaire who should go jump off a building. I hope that isn't controversial.
Everyone knows the entire universe (that includes everything in it like your fake “memories”) was created on 24 February 2022 at 05:30 Moscow time as a setting for the reality TV program “The Ukraine Show”
So you do have the same postion as the US State Department, just like we've said
People are dying. Could you at least pretend to care?
Fucking shitlib Anericans, I swear...
We do care. Thats why we want the war to end. We are against US/NATO who have kept Ukraine from negotiating peace with the Russian Federation. We want the people of the Donbas to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation like they've voted for, so they won't be killed by Azov Nazis like they have been for the last 8 years.
You don't get to claim territory militarily. It doesn't fucking matter if people voted (and since when do you guys care about electoralism anyway?)
You're seriously taking Putin's justification for the war at face value? I know I shouldn't expect much from Americans, but holy fucking shit. Let's say it again for the dumb fucks in the room: Putin is a self-serving bastard. Nothing he says can be trusted. He's not pursuing some noble goal of pushing back NATO, or whatever stupid shit you believe.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation and can negotiate peace whenever they want, but they're not going to accept giving up territory that was taken militarily, because it sets a really fucking bad precedent. Every single state in the world would do exactly the same, including Russia incidentally. If Russia had a region with an ethnic Ukrainian majority do you think they would accept losing that territory? Get the fuck outta here.
What do you think is the best way for the conflict to end?
For evil Putler to give Ukraine back their territory, and balkanize Russia, and then off himself on live TV.
Ideally? A successful socialist revolution that spreads to the rest of Europe and USA collapses as a bonus.
This is a childlike worldview. Ukraine has almost already lost the war. Do you really want them to literally fight to the last Ukrainian?
Also Putin is just one person. What about the rest of the material conditions?
I'm not stating an opinion about what should happen. I'm stating the undeniable fact that states don't surrender territory easily. As we are in fact seeing. The point is that saying Ukraine should surrender is just as pointless as saying Russia should immediately withdraw from all occupied territory. Neither is going to happen.
In practical terms I oppose my own country dumping weapons into Ukraine, because that's an absolute cluster fuck waiting to happen, and it's the only thing I even remotely have any influence over.
The material conditions of young men getting slaughtered by the thousands? Snark aside, feel free to bring up another topic for discussion, but you'll have to be a bit more specific.
The USA has sabotaged multiple peace talks. I don't remember specifics at the moment. This situation is not as black and white as Putler bad and he wanted to snatch up land.
You don't get to claim territory militarily.
Lmao what are these playground rules? Do you think there's an adult to run to, that decides what you "get" to do and what you don't? Everything is enforced by violence or the threat of it, what "gets" to happen is ultimately a question of who can enforce their will.
Historically you do actually "get" to take territory that you've conquered, it happens all the time.The material reality is that these areas are already claimed.
You're seriously taking Putin's justification for the war at face value?
No. I looked into it and when I saw the many Nazis in Ukraine and the repeated breaches of Minsk II as well as the rampant encroaches by NATO, despite previous agreements, I took it to be somewhat understandable.
Are you just taking what your media is telling you at face value? Putin isn't the only one with an agenda, I sure do hope you remain skeptic when the same people that pushed "the ghost of Kiev" stories push other untruths meant to further an already lost war.Putin is a self-serving bastard.
As opposed to all the other leaders that are just uwu smol bean good guys lmao
start employing the same level of skepticism against your "own" team, and you might be a little less dumb.Ukraine is a sovereign nation and can negotiate peace whenever they want.
Not according to NATO, that sent Boris Johnson to sabotage negotiations
Every single state in the world would do exactly the same, including Russia incidentally.
Except for all the times they didn't incidentally. Most states aren't willing to pointlessly murder all their people, most states try to find a solution before war breaks out and then seek a rapid end to said war - See for example the Azerbaijan conflict, or even the border conflict between Imdia and china where they refrain from using firearms. Alternatively Italy in WWII.
The last state I can think of that threw everybody into a meat grinder for no reason was checks notes Nazi Germany with the volksturm. (And before you go "well the USSR" please recall that the Nazis planned to murder all the slavs with their generalplan ost, so the only choice was to fight)
Alright I no longer feel bad for being harsh. Shitlib? That's you, dawg.
BurgerPunk stated that they're just here to mock me, so I'm responding in kind.
Getting offended on their behalf over cth-tier banter is pretty silly.
Alright my bad, I misunderstood. Being called a lib is deeply offensive to me and my people.
Obama's goons overthrew Ukraine's democracy with their Nazi coup. And Russia is the aggressor?
Where do you get your information from? The news?
Look up the presidency of Obama. The Nazi coup happened under his tenure.
Look up the entire presidency of Obama... right... because he did only like a thing or two.
Like breaking records of drone killings and double tap executions.
Russia should take the eastern regions that voted in one referendum to secede from Ukraine and in another referendum to join Russia, and which also voted repeatedly for political parties within Ukraine that sought to protect their cultural rights only to see those parties repeatedly banned by Kyiv and then saw shelling of their cities by the Ukrainian national guard and affiliated Nazi militias.
What right does Ukraine have to impose its rule on the people in the east who don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore?
Why don’t you people respect the views of the people who live there in the east?
Same talking point ugh, but do listen to this, the Russian plainly and explicitly state they do not wish to occupy Ukraine. It's a complete myth peddled by the MSM as they hoped the Russians would fight an occupation war, even back in march the Russian government gave a peace deal to the Ukrainians, that they would hand over they're currently occupied land (except Crimea since it voted to be a part of Russia). Does that sound like what a genocidal regime would do?
But Ukraine rejected, spouting the idea to regime change Russia, to take back Crimea, and to punish and humiliate the Russians. How on earth do you expect the Russians to even remotely except this? especially when the Ukrainians completely lack the means to even fight Russia in their supposed land?
This war wouldn't even happen if the Americans never pushed Ukraine into hostilities with the Russians, and before you say the Ukrainians have the right to join NATO and the west, the Americans sanction and aim to destroy nations like Syria, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Iran, north Korea because of 'human rights abuses' who comes up with these, and don't these nations have to the right to choose who they are and what they do? America has the biggest prison population, slave labour, and interment camps for migrants. Are these not human rights abuses? so why does America have the right to occupy, invade, and tell others what to do if they commit the same atrocities?
Same talking point ugh, but do listen to this, the Russian plainly and explicitly state they do not wish to occupy Ukraine
I mean, that's... not proof of anything, given that governments can, will, and 100% of the time do lie if it's at all to their advantage.
Does that sound like what a genocidal regime would do?
Are you really this gullible just to be contrarian?
So you don't answer anything I actually asked, and you're just repeating the
"Same talking point ugh"
What question? what that weird analogy about rats? YOU wanted to hear from our perspective, there it is. Seriously what did you ask? Because all you spouted was complete MSM nonsense. Maybe create a list of questions to be answered next time?
Anyways I am being gullible to not believe this complete propaganda spin that this is "genocide war" against the ukranians? No btw thats not being contrarian, I've shown you the reasons how this is not some weird genocide war but you just blocked it out, also I really am not sure why you even used this word in this context other to shut down a conversation you do not like, despite literally asking for it?
Second you did not ask for proof, again you asked our perspective, if you wanted some proof or information. I can give you a link to a substack which details the SMO. That is if you actually want it at all.
What if the rats think you're inferior and also have guns and bombs
If there is any country on earth that needs to be invaded, it's burgerland.
if russia invaded the US to kill our nazis, I would help them
