I have a ton of negativity associated with pretty much every major religion, because at least here in the West, it really seems like everything is just appropriated to reiterate that "all is well under the Earth" and to morally condemn eating chocolate cake and sex, but when it's not Christianity it's basically just made into Christianity but more valid because it's not made by white people (I mean fair but it's also kind of... orientalist and obviously appropriation)
It's really nice seeing all the context in how there's actual philosophy and ideas and practices and esoteric studies and cool shit and weird shit like Christianity. It's not some sort of exceptional (and exceptionally racist concept of) "magic oriental knowledge", it's just... another tradition with amazing elements and communities and it's own cosmology and beliefs.
Sorry that's probably irrelevant but I just found the Wikipedia article really cool. It reminds me (even though it's entirely different) of how you had so much philosophy and ideas spiral off of Christianity that are sometimes integral to it and sometimes just monks accidentally discovering how to make a new kind of beer.
I think I get what you mean. I was trying to avoid orientalizing because there are white Buddhist teachers across the globe who really know their stuff. It's not a matter of "Asian teacher good" or "Asian religion good". There are plenty of Vietnamese monks who were born into the religion who smoke and ride motorcycles and buy the latest iPhones. It happens everywhere. But institutionally, because there has been more community and monetary support for Buddhist temples, you get more of the philosophy and less of the 'meditation-as-productivity-tool' stuff in non-Western countries.
Westerners just primarily get exposed through very watered down versions of the philosophy from people like Alan Watts and other spiritual hippie types who traveled to India decades ago. And before that, people like the British colonists who threw out any idea they couldn't recontextualize into a Christian framework. Or modern tech grifters selling their meditation apps.
There's lots of cool teachings and stories you can interpret literally or metaphorically depending on the situation. Like Manjushri cutting open the Himalayan valleys with a giant flaming sword, the consumption of human ashes as an intentional taboo to shock the mind out of a dualistic concept of reality, Chinese monks burning the books of other monks and essentially telling them to
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. There's thousands of years of cosmology that blends with different cultures. And equally as much philosophical work as all of the European philosophers combined.
But with that also comes stuff like the Gelug school burning down other Tibetan monasteries, abuses of power in the sangha, etc. Some more humerous stuff like Buddhists debating Daoists, winning, then writing a follow up called "Laughing at the Dao". Just regular infighting, violence, and things that plague every other religion.
So its good not to have a romanticized view of Buddhism or any other religion. I personally vibe it much more than anything that relies on a creator god, but as this thread discusses, governance based on religious principles doesn't usually go so well.
Nah, I just meant that there are people who do not conform to the ideal stereotype of a monk, sometimes because they were born into the religion. Which sometimes is fine, like tons of monks have full body tattoos and stuff unrelated to their practice, but sometimes there are people who do things contradictory to the teachings. A monk smoking, riding a motorcycle (not like a motorbike for transport), and with a flashy phone probably isn't following the teachings to the letter, if at all. There are militant monks warring against other religions right now. That blows some people's minds because all they get is sanitized images of lotus flowers. Just wanted to point out that Buddhists are people too so romanticizing them, Asian or not, will always lead to disappointment and impossible standards. Just like how Christian's aren't always Christ-like. Tons of Buddhists only engage with things on a surface level, even if they're born into a culture more inclined toward it.
I have a ton of negativity associated with pretty much every major religion, because at least here in the West, it really seems like everything is just appropriated to reiterate that "all is well under the Earth" and to morally condemn eating chocolate cake and sex, but when it's not Christianity it's basically just made into Christianity but more valid because it's not made by white people (I mean fair but it's also kind of... orientalist and obviously appropriation)
It's really nice seeing all the context in how there's actual philosophy and ideas and practices and esoteric studies and cool shit and weird shit like Christianity. It's not some sort of exceptional (and exceptionally racist concept of) "magic oriental knowledge", it's just... another tradition with amazing elements and communities and it's own cosmology and beliefs.
Sorry that's probably irrelevant but I just found the Wikipedia article really cool. It reminds me (even though it's entirely different) of how you had so much philosophy and ideas spiral off of Christianity that are sometimes integral to it and sometimes just monks accidentally discovering how to make a new kind of beer.
I think I get what you mean. I was trying to avoid orientalizing because there are white Buddhist teachers across the globe who really know their stuff. It's not a matter of "Asian teacher good" or "Asian religion good". There are plenty of Vietnamese monks who were born into the religion who smoke and ride motorcycles and buy the latest iPhones. It happens everywhere. But institutionally, because there has been more community and monetary support for Buddhist temples, you get more of the philosophy and less of the 'meditation-as-productivity-tool' stuff in non-Western countries.
Westerners just primarily get exposed through very watered down versions of the philosophy from people like Alan Watts and other spiritual hippie types who traveled to India decades ago. And before that, people like the British colonists who threw out any idea they couldn't recontextualize into a Christian framework. Or modern tech grifters selling their meditation apps.
There's lots of cool teachings and stories you can interpret literally or metaphorically depending on the situation. Like Manjushri cutting open the Himalayan valleys with a giant flaming sword, the consumption of human ashes as an intentional taboo to shock the mind out of a dualistic concept of reality, Chinese monks burning the books of other monks and essentially telling them to
But with that also comes stuff like the Gelug school burning down other Tibetan monasteries, abuses of power in the sangha, etc. Some more humerous stuff like Buddhists debating Daoists, winning, then writing a follow up called "Laughing at the Dao". Just regular infighting, violence, and things that plague every other religion.
So its good not to have a romanticized view of Buddhism or any other religion. I personally vibe it much more than anything that relies on a creator god, but as this thread discusses, governance based on religious principles doesn't usually go so well.
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buddhism = motorcycle bad?!??!?
Nah, I just meant that there are people who do not conform to the ideal stereotype of a monk, sometimes because they were born into the religion. Which sometimes is fine, like tons of monks have full body tattoos and stuff unrelated to their practice, but sometimes there are people who do things contradictory to the teachings. A monk smoking, riding a motorcycle (not like a motorbike for transport), and with a flashy phone probably isn't following the teachings to the letter, if at all. There are militant monks warring against other religions right now. That blows some people's minds because all they get is sanitized images of lotus flowers. Just wanted to point out that Buddhists are people too so romanticizing them, Asian or not, will always lead to disappointment and impossible standards. Just like how Christian's aren't always Christ-like. Tons of Buddhists only engage with things on a surface level, even if they're born into a culture more inclined toward it.
EDIT: Many people's first introduction is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which I haven't personally read.
makes sense, thanks