I'm back and honestly, I'm only madder than I was two days ago because I've had time to mull the bullshit over. Link, for those of y'all out of the know.
It appalls me that any community of people that claim to be marxists, that claim to follow the scientific method in all things that would contribute to the betterment of the world we're forced to share, that claim to be really out here performing praxis and making differences in their communities; it fucking galls me that a community like everything I just described can still look at a still on-going pandemic and still have such a tacit anti-mask stance.
More of you admitted to not masking than I'm comfortable with and y'know what, maybe we could've left it at that. It'd have been a form of liberalism to not dig my heels in on that and take a swing at that mindset because again: I took on a new disability in the wake of a COVID infection. My partner took on a new disability in the wake of their infection. I was put in a hospital bed, my grandparents were put on respirators, so many members of my family and my community were genuinely out of commission and a good number of us really had to question if we were going to make it to see the next morning under those infections-- but maybe, we could've left it at that.
But then, I have to see you people not only trying to justify it, but taking up for smuggards who just think it's all some big fuckin joke, like they're their favorite podcast crackerbro getting to have their own personal Matt Christman moment. I expect "u mad bro" smuglord fuckery out of crackers who can't even be trusted to properly wipe their asses after they shit, or to wash their hands after doing so. And worse, you expect me to not be heated about smug-assed crackers making light of genuinely-disabling infections after the fact.
I stand ten motherfucking toes down on what I said to Cantaloupe Ass and Ghost of Faso; any plague rat motherfucker who wants to take issue with how I feel about people who won't mask can catch the same cases my partners and my family caught. It's a whole lot of you motherfuckers that are so unserious, so emphatically not my comrades that it sickens me seeing you call yourselves so.
Do better. Deuces.
I stand ten motherfucking toes down on what I said to Cantaloupe Ass and Ghost of Faso; any plague rat motherfucker who wants to take issue with how I feel about people who won’t mask can catch the same cases my partners and my family caught. It’s a whole lot of you motherfuckers that are so unserious, so emphatically not my comrades that it sickens me seeing you call yourselves so.
To address this, at no point have I ever said that people should not mask, I advocated for masking alongside infection rates rising and not masking when the current infection levels are low enough (like less than 10 cases country wide) and at that point masking in clinical settings or around more vulernable people.
I took issue with you wishing death/disablity on another poster, and I stand by that.
Edit:
To people bandstanding about how in the coming revolution they dont understand how people like me would be able to contribute.
I was in the COVID trenches, I was working in a hospital helping manage my cities infection response to COVID. I alone probably helped vaccinate and give mask/isolation/money advice to over 20,000 people and managed a team that facilaited my entire city getting that.
A year in after threatining to strike I managed to convince our managers manager to let us work from home. I have been a tireless advocate for worker centric policies and responses and changed and effected as much as I could to protect as many people as I could.
I would have to get a bus to the hospital everyday, when I realized most people on the bus to hospital where not masking, I literally just got off the bus and walked, I biked everyday (2 hours) after that, even in the winter, on xmas day and new years eve I was working. I would often have to pass piles of dead bodies, sobbing carers ect to get there.
This is all to say, have some goddam empathy, most of us are exhausted, I did all of this while managing my own schizophrenia and recent enstrangement from both of my biological parents over there fascist politics.
I understand you're in the same position Pharoh and rightfully angry and pissed off, but please pick your battles more carefully.
Masks, just like the "litterbug" campaign, are a way to offload responsibility and blame onto the working class, responsibility that should fall to the government and companies.
Case: a person is sick, maybe covid maybe not. Instead of telling the person to stay home (cutting productivity, therefore cutting profits), they just tell the person to wear a mask.
Case: a person works from home, and is sick. Instead of the government providing groceries and ensuring the person doesn't have to go out during the 4-5 days they are contagious, they tell them to mask up and go grocery shopping.
People don't even know how to wear a mask. I have seen so many people wear a mask under their nose, or have a mask on that is used and wet from sweat (ineffective). I also see many people have gaps on the sides, or under their chin, might as well not wear a mask at that point. Don't even get me started on those visors...
The media lied to people. First they said masks don't work, told people not to buy, but then couple of months later there was a mask mandate.
Their mask rules were ridiculous. When the restaurants opened (for example), the rules were that you had to wear a mask while not seated, walking between tables, but then you could take it off once you're at the table. LMAO
Those thin masks don't offer much protection. The ones that do are the N95 and surgical ones, yet people were allowed to wear homemade knitted masks, cloth masks, novelty masks, etc. There was no enforcing of a standard. Masks other than N95 or surgical simply don't work.
"Well, what's the alternative??!!"
- when sick, people should stay home (they should have paid sick leave)
- covid tests should have been free and people should have been testing themselves every few days, I'd much rather that everyone around me had been tested in the last 24-48h, than everyone wearing a mask (improperly) while not knowing whether they have covid or not
- ventilation, UV lights (like others have said)
- hand sanitisers everywhere, plus free hand sanitisers given out (this has been done for the most part)
- quick, population-wide vaccination, no dilly-dallying, no vaccinating this group, then this group, then this group
Your solutions offer little help to immunocompromised people who are often afraid to leave their house because covid could significantly worsen their disability or kill them. They also do not help us today to prevent more people from getting a disabling disease called long covid.
immunocompromised people who are often afraid to leave their house because covid could significantly worsen their disability or kill them
Sure, and they should wear a mask. The point I was trying to make is that most people don't wear a mask properly, or wash/sanitise their hands properly, so people wearing a mask just to wear a mask doesn't help much.
Here's another solution: an honest, public education campaign with free masks that makes people want to wear them and know how to wear them properly.
It was botched during covid cause every country had its own guidelines and program, so people were reading about these ones and those ones. And of course it was turned into a political issue. This was perfect for a global organisation like WHO to handle on a global scale with shared resources from every country, but the US and other Western countries were spreading propaganda about WHO being in the pockets of China and they're not to be trusted. This despite China and WHO warning about covid months before it became a pandemic. Western governments have mishandled the pandemic, lied to their own people, told them this, that, do this, don't do that, confused the people until they just didn't care any more, politicians enriched themselves, a lot of money was pilfered from the economic help fund, and these same governments say "wear a mask because we say so". Now why should anyone listen to them, why would anyone want to? I can understand that reasoning.
I still wore a mask to protect vulnerable people (haven't worn one in a long time cause literally no one around me does), when I feel covid symptoms I test myself, if I think I have covid I tell people with whom I shared a space recently, etc. But I do this cause I want to do these things, not because I am told to, and I want to do it cause I know the virus can hurt vulnerable people. A lot of people don't even "believe" in covid. That's the level of public education in neoliberal states.
There's so much to unpack here. Most COVID infections are passed from an asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic carrier. Surgical masks absolutely protect the wearer and more so the people around the wearer. But you know what? You can wear an KN95 and above. Hand sanitiser is a pretty low effect remedy when touching is a lower risk danger for a respiratory virus.
restaurants
Careful people can avoid indoor dining. We can't avoid you in mass transit and in the shop
The media lied to people. First they said masks don't work, told people not to buy, but then couple of months later there was a mask mandate.
In the first few months of the pandemic, there was a short supply of masks for hospitals. I don't want to be mean, but this sounds like stuff old white dudes post on Facebook.
I swear I say this out of concern for you, but I would delete your comment as it doesn't put you in the best light.
In the first few months of the pandemic, there was a short supply of masks for hospitals.
But why lie? Why not say "masks work, but there is a shortage in healthcare and refrain from buying too much"? This is why people's trust in institutions is eroding. Our institutions are neoliberal constructed and controlled anyway. Then they lied about the efficacy of vaccines. Again, why not be honest about it? Liberals have been digging their own grave for a while.
Surgical masks absolutely protect the wearer and more so the people around the wearer.
Where did I say they don't?
We can’t avoid you in mass transit and in the shop
lol
I would delete your comment as it doesn’t put you in the best light.
You should read my comment more carefully, before having a knee-jerk reaction to a few key words.
But why lie?
Honestly, post a source that the media lied about masks. I can't believe you're allowed to post this.
Surgical masks absolutely protect the wearer and more so the people around the wearer.
Where did I say they don't?
"Those thin masks don't offer much protection." This is just misinformation.
We can’t avoid you in mass transit and in the shop
lol
Sociopath level response.
Also I told you about asymptomatic transmission yet your comment remains unedited.
“Those thin masks don’t offer much protection.”
Not compared to N95 and surgical masks, no. I've seen people wear one-layer cloth masks. Can anyone guarantee that every mask sold in a shop or at home is made according to WHO's recommendation of three layers of certain fabrics/material?
post a source that the media lied about masks.
Only place I could find from a quick search: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/fact-checkoutdated-video-of-fauci-saying-theres-no-reason-to-be-walking-arou-idUSKBN26T2T9/
A video circulating on social media shows Dr Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), saying “there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask.” Fauci’s remarks were made on March 8, 2020 [start of the Pandemic]
In the clip, Dr Fauci says “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”
I remember seeing that on TV in March. I remember cause I wasn't traveling and I was watching TV in the hotel. For a second I thought I may have imagined it (which I would have admitted had I not found anything).
Also I told you about asymptomatic transmission yet your comment remains unedited.
What do you want me to do about it? Isn't asymptomatic transmission more likely at home or at work where you spend a lot of time indoors with the same people? Do people wear masks at home?
Not compared to N95 and surgical masks, no. I've seen people wear one-layer cloth masks. Can anyone guarantee that every mask sold in a shop or at home is made according to WHO's recommendation of three layers of certain fabrics/material?
And this is an argument to not mask to protect vulnerable comrades why?
Only place I could find from a quick search: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/fact-checkoutdated-video-of-fauci-saying-theres-no-reason-to-be-walking-arou-idUSKBN26T2T9/
At least you found a source. I hope that you see that something that happened at month 1 of the pandemic, shared solely on Facebook of all places, shouldn't be affecting your decisions in any way.
What do you want me to do about it?
Remove insinuations that sick leave and hand sanitising are substitutes for masking. By themselves, they're fine. But to uses them as an argument that we shouldn't mask is hella misguided.
And this is an argument to not mask to protect vulnerable comrades why?
That's not the argument I made.
to uses them as an argument that we shouldn’t mask is hella misguided
My argument was that blaming individuals (especially the working class, rich people never got punished for breaking covid regulations) for the spread of covid when governments should have done much more in the very beginning, namely shutting down most international flights, gave people months off work, shut down everything but the essential places, etc. But throughout the whole pandemic every Western government kept thinking about is keeping the economy afloat, coming up with ad-hoc measures and silly half-measures (like wearing masks in restaurants while walking). By the time covid is all around you that you need a mask 24/7 it's already too late and the blame shouldn't be put on working class people who (rightfully) have grown distrustful of their governments and their institutions.
Masks, just like the "litterbug" campaign, are a way to offload responsibility and blame onto the working class, responsibility that should fall to the government and companies.
"Well, what's the alternative??!!"
-List ten things that aren't masking
You honestly trying to tell me that you're not making an argument that we don't have to mask??? Do you mask, for real? You "lol"ed my comment that we have to face unmasked people in mass transit and shops.
If you'd like to talk about your temp ban we can talk about it. The way they're structured means they're instantaneous and cut all contact for the duration, but we've explained them before to users after they asked for a follow-up.
Nobody likes getting banned, neither do I, but if we wanted to silence someone we'd give them a permaban and refuse all their new account requests. You received a 48 hours ban for wishing covid on someone else from Lemmygrad, despite you yourself having been through covid and arguing for methods to minimize it so that others wouldn't catch it. Do you feel that comment was productive?
I hope you have to live with the kind of lung scarring that my partner has to
I curse you with that.Oh shit. Well that's not nice or comradely.
Then that motherfucker's going to spread a plague, ain't they? Not mine. You motherfuckers are going to learn that we don't do free camaraderie and entitlements to respect. Shown nothing, proven nothing, and still out here with your hands out.
Do you feel that comment was productive?
I stand ten toes down on what I said. If people really want to take up for anti-maskers, if people really wanna smug and optics politic how I feel about petri dish-assed settlers, the I give less than zero fucks what happens to them after that point because how dare they call themselves my comrade?
When someone shows me who they are, I believe them; and if someone tells me they're my comrade while espousing mindsets that could kill my loved ones, then no the fuck they are not; and I'll handle them like I would any other reactionary from that point forward.
Funny as fuck to me how y'all will talk all out your own asses about not heeding liberal optics politics until we have disagreements on who the comrades are; then it's "oh my god I can't believe you said that to someone smugging about debilitating disability!" Y'all a LARP.
As @CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml stated here, the reason you received a temp ban was because you told someone (from a comrade server) that you hope they get covid. That is completely innappropriate, and its almost unbelievable that you'd wish that pain on someone else. The point of these temp bans is to give people a chance to cool off, and that's a very minor thing considering.
I'd wager that most of us on lemmygrad (including me) mask in public, and your temp ban had nothing to do with that. The only bannable offense w/ respect to masking here would be someone posting anti-science articles, or wishing that someone gets covid like you did. People can (and do) report those comments, so we can remove them as necessary.
I'm locking this as its trying to start a struggle session that's a distraction over your temp ban for saying you hope someone gets covid.
Even if we set aside the question of efficacy of masking in a society where few others do (and it is still efficacious to you and people you regularly interact with), any so-called communist who doesn't mask is a communist who is utterly failing at even the bare minimum of solidarity with their immunocompromised comrades. Do you consider yourself someone who is mindful and compassionate of other working people in your community? Then you should be masking.
I mostly recall posts qualifying as "anti-mask" coming across as a defeated, beaten down attitude about it, like "I give up", not something anti-science or the like. I understand some stuff got heated and removed though, so if there were posts going into detailed anti-mask stuff, I don't think I saw it. A lot of what I was there for to reply to people (that I can recall) was trying to commiserate and relate to people on reasoning they're dealing with and how hard it is dealing with the pressures of other people and the system as a whole, trying to be conscientious in spite of that. Some of us dealt with, or still deal with, family members who refuse to take it seriously now, or for some people, family members who never took it seriously. On top of living in places where virtually nobody else is doing it anymore, which can attract strange looks or worse, depending on the place. Which can be very isolating, trying to somehow overcome that and be principled while people are getting sick in spite of what we do. It can make a person feel helpless and demoralized. That was one of the sentiments I saw there and I know it well in certain forms myself.
I mostly recall posts qualifying as “anti-mask” coming across as a defeated, beaten down attitude about it, like “I give up”, not something anti-science or the like.
That is being anti-masking and anti-science. Copying and pasting what I said in the Hexbear thread on this:
Should I not confront racism or misogyny in my workplace just because everyone around me is racist/misogynistic? Should I not reject the attitude of lesser-evilism just because everyone around me are chauvinistic liberals? Of course not. I don’t understand why so many cannot make that same connection with masking. Yes, our governments, especially the US government, have severely dropped the ball with Covid. But masking is only one step towards a community response to protect the vulnerable, and the most basic one at that. If we can’t clear that bar, how can we expect to accomplish anything?
If you live with people who refuse to mask, I feel for you, that’s awful and I’m sorry they are damaging your health through their inaction. That does not excuse contributing yourself to the spread of illness in your community. If you have the ability to mask but refuse and take a defeatist attitude, then you are not my comrade. Camaraderie is not given freely. Respect is not given freely. I’m tired of being talked down to people who claim to be on my side while contributing to the shit that has fucked up me and my family’s entire life for the last almost half decade now.
On top of living in places where virtually nobody else is doing it anymore, which can attract strange looks or worse, depending on the place. Which can be very isolating, trying to somehow overcome that and be principled while people are getting sick in spite of what we do.
I’m sorry but fuck off with this. You want to know what’s isolating? Having all your friends abandon you because you are immunocompromised. Being forced out of every community you were a part of because none of them will accommodate you. Being forced into the fringes of society because everywhere you go, everything you do, is a constant, neverending reminder that your life matters less than everyone else’s to the general public. And you know what’s really isolating? Spending years, years, calmly and patiently explaining to people the dangers of Covid, the effectiveness of masking, the history of ableism that has led to this disaster, the action we can take to improve, offering people free masks, free tests, anything at all out of my own pocket (even though we are barely scraping by ourselves!) just to try and get anyone to care at all, and none of them accept them, no one takes what we say seriously, and no one can be fucked to change their behavior. How long do I have to be nice and patient with people for? Cause it sure as fuck isn’t working, and if being nice won’t work, then I have no problem with getting mean.
Camaraderie is not given freely. Respect is not given freely. I’m tired of being talked down to people who claim to be on my side while contributing to the shit that has fucked up me and my family’s entire life for the last almost half decade now.
This right fucking here. Too many motherfuckers believe they're just entitled to camaraderie while having only shown and proven their asses. We not doin that.
I've worn a mask the entire time and self-isolated a lot. My whole approach to this topic from the start was in good faith, to better understand where people are at with it and if possible, to reinforce my own reasons for wearing a mask.
I’m sorry but fuck off with this.
I can empathize with how bad you have it, though I can't pretend to say I understand it, as I'm not immunocompromised. But I'm not going to go along with a tone that implies real struggles people are dealing with aren't real because someone else has it worse. My whole household got sick with covid at one point, after a long period of managing to avoid it, because one person was being a socialite and not masking. Thankfully we'd been able to vaccinate before that happened and there was no (known) long-term damage, but by god did it get to me after how hard I tried to manage the risk. That is real and demoralizing. I can't even imagine how bad it is not having the vaccine as an option, but you are effectively taking shots at the messenger here. I'm trying to understand and describe a problem and what its challenges are, not make excuses for people having such a systemic lack of any sense of social responsibility.
Don't confuse me for someone who wants to compromise on important issues because they don't want to make waves. The problem is the practicality of it. I can't give people more willpower to stand up on this. And sure I can go on with guilting myself or telling myself I'm doing some small amount of % harm reduction or telling myself I'm being principled, but it's not helping me persuade anyone else or explain well to them why I'm doing it. Like what am I supposed to tell people? I'm seriously asking here. I don't know and I don't expect you to know either, but I really don't know what to say to people about any of it. People are insistent on treating it as a thing you just sort of "move on from" at some point and I don't know how to counter that. Should I yell at them about immunocompromised people? I've never tried that one. I honestly don't know if it would move anyone.
Like what am I supposed to tell people? I’m seriously asking here. I don’t know and I don’t expect you to know either, but I really don’t know what to say to people about any of it.
I don't know either, I really wish I did. Appealing to their morals doesn't work. Appealing to their self-interest doesn't work. Yelling at them about immunocompromised people definitely doesn't work, maybe the least effective thing I've tried so far. Being visible and vocal in my workplace hasn't worked. And people's logic just goes round and round, you disprove one thing and they use it to justify some other misinformed take, and then you disprove that one and they move on to the next or bounce right back to where they started. It's a never-ending cycle of cynicism and defeatism at best, and ableist, settler brainworms at worst. I wasn't kidding when I said being nice doesn't work, so now I'm just mean. At least that way I'm not biting my tongue off.
The problem is the practicality of it. I can’t give people more willpower to stand up on this. And sure I can go on with guilting myself or telling myself I’m doing some small amount of % harm reduction or telling myself I’m being principled, but it’s not helping me persuade anyone else or explain well to them why I’m doing it.
So what are we supposed to do? At least masking can have a positive effect at all. Who benefits from us not wearing a mask? The capitalists kind of benefit I guess, but even then I can't see mass disabling your work force as beneficial to them, really. The only other people I can think of are those who choose to opt out of masking for their own personal comfort, trading their health and the health of those around them to avoid social pressure. Hell, it's not exactly a material benefit, but least when I see people properly masking I can feel a little relief that anyone around me cares.
The only other thing I can think of is if you are the organizer for any sort of event or social gathering, require N95 respirators and strictly enforce that rule, kicking out anyone who takes theirs off or refuses to wear one. Agitating in gatherings you don't organize is worth it too I'd say, though frankly I wouldn't expect much in my experience. I guess if you can get your job to provide air filtration that would be good too, but again good luck if you already can't get your coworkers on board.
go off, i still don't know why people are so mad about just wearing a mask.
Im pretty tired of being guilted about masking at required events that should have never been planned.
Uphold Amerikan Pharaoh thought.
The Western left, such as it is, has really shown their liberalism when it comes to COVID. What should have been a time for us to shine was dominated by a small liberal anti-mask sentiment, then a larger liberal anti-anti-mask reaction, and finally liberal normalization and a much higher anti-mask sentiment. We should be 100% top of caring for community, organizing in community, calling out liberal hypernormalization and building from it.
Instead, we have mostly seen opportunism. COVID-cautious folks (which is to say, correct folks) a minority in orgs, sometimes listened to at first. Orgs trying to say that wearing masks alienates you from the proletariat (lmao). And then people who are understandably tired of being the odd one out using this as justification to be massively inconsiderate, even dangerous.
There is still plenty to organize around, though the lightning strike moment has passed for now. Paxlovid is $1400 for the uninsured in the US. There's currently a wave. There's a new, seemingly better vaccine and we could organize around access to it. There are locales trying to ban masks in order to crack down on Palestinian solidarity protests. Public health aside, normalizing masks is good for our ability to safely carry out actions. It's not out of the cards for lightning to strike again and give us dual pandemics, as COVID damages immune systems and public health had adapted to a "fuck it" status quo, flirting with bird flu for no reason other than a poultry lobby. Will your org be ready to agitate? Or did it alienate the people with the most knowledge and investment in this topic?
Promote correct positions (COVID-safe) and reject dominant liberalism (nornalization), especially in our own spaces!
you people
y'all
Who is your criticism pointed towards? The whole website? The ones you saw promoting not using masks? Try not to generalize a whole website because of a single post you saw 😉
Jesus I think I memory holed that one, was like a fucking post by a disciple of Nurgle trying to edge people out to perpetuate a plague during one of the worst periods at that time with an ongoing covid surge. It's freaking weird how so many countries have a tradition of masking even before covid during seasons of high flu and yet western people aren't just baffled but outright RABID whenever masking is discussed, as though covid doesn't fucking exist and the latest surge never fucking happened (then again mainstream news said very little about it so for most Americans it never happened or was fake news).
hope that those boomer-brained plague rats found a conscience and some empathy since then
one can hope
I assume this is a US thing? In my country COVID cases have fallen so low that we are no longer keeping track of new cases in our statistics and the government has already declared a return to normalcy (hospitals included) more than a year ago. I'd like to ask for confirmation if this is the case because seeing infighting over this makes me feel like I am coming from another planet.
Yup. Still a thing, and another wave is definitely on its way.
$10 says you don't have anything approaching this energy for people in real life, who actually pose a danger to you.
You will never meet anyone here in real life.
I hope this is cathartic, though.
Actually I do, motherfucker, because I wear a god damn p100 everywhere I go. A fucking gas mask with removable cartridges and everything. Do that and get back to me. I get stared at, laughed at, pointed at, and I stare right back. My wife and I have been fake coughed at as we are passed. I go about my business. I organize with my local community to give out free respirators, information, and education to anyone who needs it. Now tell me what the fuck it is you do again?
I'm not arguing against masks. You're using me to let off steam from frustration in your actual life.
I get an extra $5 if you use "showing your ass" or "I hope you catch COVID and die" in the reply btw
What a shit-show that thread was. For some strange reason, the warped mind runs sickeningly deep in every corner of the culture of the west. The inherent need for blood in exchange for justice that was designed through every facet of our media, our art, our relationships with each other in an fierce individualism that demands "justification" for why a person themselves should change or adjust to the conditions around them.
A design to slaughter Native-Americans, to separate the sick, the poor, the different. To make a culture where even if there is no divide, to create one. It's something that we all must fight every day. I wanted to ask, are you leaving? I appreciated your posts.
I do want to say, wishing COVID on someone isn't cool. I've lost one of my best friends to that. You have lost more. I don't wish COVID or any disease on my worst enemies. I view it in the same breath as "biological/chemical warfare" sort of thing. There is just indifference to death. There is a reflection there that I see that I wish to avoid.
I don’t wish COVID or any disease on my worst enemies.
You wouldn't wish covid even on our billionaire overlords who intentionally sabotaged any chance we had of containing it and thus condemned millions of people to death by covid, and magnitudes more to a lifelong debilitation for the sake of profits? I would and I do. I wish that upon them and much much worse.
This feels eerily close to the line of thinking that libs use when they say, “Oh? You want to get rid of the death penalty and focus on rehabilitation? Even for murderers,removeds, and war criminals? You must be evil then too.”
Taking an extremely uncharitable view of 666’s words and then somehow trying to say that he somehow believes that billionaires shouldn’t feel the consequences of their actions is bizarre.
Obviously you can always find some asinine edge case for absolutely every statement, but that doesn’t make the rebuttal strong at all.
No, you have it completely backwards. I'm the one saying "in a communist country, the death penalty is not always a bad thing, but may be commensurate justice to be used against those responsible for the exploitation of an entire society and the torture and murder of thousands of working class people," when a lib, in their usual cringe idealism, draws a blanket assessment like "noooo, killing is always bad and there are no exceptions!" Saying "it's not cool to wish covid on anyone no matter how evil they are" is sheer idealism. "Wishing" alone will never make any material difference in the first place, but there's nothing wrong with desiring the death of people who absolutely deserve death, which is fine, normal, in some cases even positive.
Your analogy is what's absolutely bizarre and asinine because you either totally misunderstand what's happening here or, like I said, you got it very obviously ass backwards. Funny enough, your reading of what I said is far more uncharitable than anything in my response to -6-6-6-.
The death penalty has no place in a socialist state. Once the revolution passes the initial stage, the death penalty becomes purely a tool of retribution and vengeance, the same as it is in a liberal state.
What’s ass backwards if your takes.
I'm somewhat neutral/leaning towards being supportive of the death penalty, and I understand your sentiment. And I'm not trying to be a contrarian or sound like a smug "know-it-all" or edgelord.
But I genuinely want to ask, can you really say that the death penalty isn't a necessity on some level?
I do think and hope that the death penalty will be used less at least in a socialist society, but my opinion is that it should always remain an option.
I am aware that it is a great tragedy that as many as 4 percent to 15-ish percent of those that are executed by the state are innocent of their charges. And I am aware that a lifetime in prison can arguably be "worse" and a more fitting punishment for the convicted.
I'm of two minds: I think the death penalty should be reserved for the most heinous crimes where there is a mountain's worth of evidence and nearly no shred of doubt, and if the person is a genuinely dangerous threat that refuses to respond to treatment, therapy, education by work and humility.
I don't understand how/why the death penalty should ever be completely removed as an option or last-resort.
I am aware that China for example supposedly has long-term plans to stop the use of capital punishment, which I think is fairly commendable.
I'm also aware that when capitalism is overthrown, crime and violent crime will drastically decrease.
I'm talking like, in regards to people like unrepentantremoveds/pedophiles, reich-wing agitators like Steven Crowder or Ben Shapiro, people like Peter Scully, Shanda Vander Ark. I don't see the benefit in letting them live.
But I genuinely want to ask, can you really say that the death penalty isn’t a necessity on some level?
Yes, any government shouldnt have the power to execute workers. People get things wrong and the death penalty is permanent. Sankara believed that on some level, and I think the death penalty is too powerfull of a lever to hand out usually.
I’m talking like, in regards to people like unrepentantremoveds/pedophiles, reich-wing agitators like Steven Crowder or Ben Shapiro, people like Peter Scully, Shanda Vander Ark. I don’t see the benefit in letting them live.
I also do see this arguement, I think for me its the pre/post revolution arguement. When we're in power we shouldnt kill our own.
Exactly. Billionaires get the wall. Where you get to do with your hands.
Who do they spread it too? Sure, their servants or their "dogs" if you want to say that. Who do they then spread it too? It is not like a nuclear weapon; or any weapon of mass devastation even chemical. It is actual, ultimate desolation that will kill far, far more than you want to.
It is not something to toy lightly with.
If the people with the power and authority to mandate vaccines, distancing, "lockdowns," and public mask wearing but who instead ensured those measures could never be seriously implemented had themselves all gotten fatal cases of covid and died slow, horrble deaths from it, then the world would be a much better place now. Who knows how many decent real people who did die of covid would still be alive, if common sense and normal community response had not been thwarted by those in power? Even belatedly, if the people most responsible for the scale of death from covid somehow got it now and died as a result, it would be a good thing worth celebrating.
It's very hard to take seriously any so-called ML who thinks that billionaires dying of the same disease they condemned millions of others die of is such a bad thing that no one should even be able to wish it would happen.
Who do they spread it too?
This isn't about spreading it. You said you wouldn't "wish it on" your worst enemies, which is pretty unambiguous in its meaning that you think that even your enemies don't deserve to suffer as one does with covid. If you read my other comment in this thread, you'd know that I always mask and always will because I care about the well-being of people in my community, immunocompromised comrades, and all people of the working class in general. Preventing the spread of covid is deeply important to me, more so than to those who make excuses for their failure to mask. Don't be disingenuous and try to imply I am not concerned about the spread of covid simply because I recognize that it would be nothing short of cosmic (if coincidental) justice if the people most responsible for its continued spread and resulting mass death covid caused were themselves to suffer and die from it.
It is not like a nuclear weapon; or any weapon of mass devastation even chemical. It is actual, ultimate desolation that will kill far, far more than you want to.
.... You do realize almost everyone has been infected with covid now, right? You're saying it's cool to wish that capitalists get nuked (or suffer other weapons of mass devastation), but wishing covid upon them is a step too far because it is ultimate desolation? What are you even talking about? This is nonsensical.
Yours might be one of the only replies in this thread I plan to reply to, because I plan to massively cut down on how much I interact with this fed. I have no further faith in the moderation here, and lost a good deal of respect for a good number of regulars here in the doing.
I do want to say, wishing COVID on someone isn't cool.
This is maybe the only place where I could see one having a genuine issue; and y'know what? That's fine that that's your take.
I've already had to watch it ravage my community. There's people I knew that don't come around anymore. Became agoraphobic. That's not even talking the people that did die in my community, and their families still feel those holes to this day. Most of the people in my personal orbit, I thank the divinities I pray to every day that they survived-- but not a one came away without something permanent left behind. Brainfog, asthma-resembling hacking fits, compromised immune systems, the works. I wouldn't feel so comfortable saying what I did to someone if I didn't already know, down to the scars at the bottoms of my lungs, what this disease does to the people who are lucky enough to have survived it.
Way I see it, if (the hypothetical) you're going to be as indifferent to death as to take up for anti-maskers, I'm going to be indifferent to what happens to (the hypothetical) you, because there is nothing that can unite us at that point. In fact, it's my hope that surviving a tribulation like that might actually inspire a level of understanding of why I approach this the way I do; but gods only know I'm already out of reasons to unite with the average settler so it is what it is.
"How did one straw break the camel's back? Here's the secret: the million other straws underneath it."
Edits for clarity.
"I’ve already had to watch it ravage my community. There’s people I knew that don’t come around anymore. Became agoraphobic. That’s not even talking the people that did die in my community, and their families still feel those holes to this day. Most of the people in my orbit, they survived-- but not a one came away without something permanent left behind. Brainfog, asthma-resembling hacking fits, compromised immune systems, the works. I wouldn’t feel so comfortable saying what I did to someone if I didn’t already know, down to the scars at the bottoms of my lungs, what this disease does to the people who are lucky enough to have survived it"
As did I.
"Way I see it, if you’re going to be as indifferent to death as to take up for anti-maskers"
The way I see it is that you're staring at something as brutally indifferent and deadly as disease and are advocating it upon anti-maskers who will then infect others who may, even by chance, infect people who truly do mask or take preventative measures. Nowhere am I standing up for them.
"I’m going to be indifferent to what happens to you"
So quickly. A shame. I can't say the same. Peace to you.
The way I see it is that you're staring at something as brutally indifferent and deadly as disease and are advocating it upon anti-maskers who will then infect others who may, even by chance, infect people who truly do mask or take preventative measures. Nowhere am I standing up for them.
I don't have much to say in this struggle session, but I do need to address this. Non/anti maskers are already infecting others, who are infecting others, etc. until people who are actually taking preventative measures may be infected. Plague rats choking to death on their own mucus, waterboarding style, would just be them suffering the consequences of the actions they're already doing. Your concern wrt the indifference to death is still valid, but I doubt nurglers suffering from more severe COVID symptoms would affect the spread appreciably; it'd arguably even reduce it since they won't be able to go out and spread it co others.
That's part of the point. We know COVID isn't always "severe". That's what is insidious about it and any other disease that could follow.
edit: not always severe as in can cause long-term issues and other plethora of afflictions instead of death. Maiming instead of killing.
Nowhere am I standing up for them.
Nor do I think you do; made slight edits to emphasize that the 'you' in my bit there is a hypothetical quantity, not meant to call you to the front directly on that.
I am not going to lie, my biggest takeaway from these threads is that most Americans, even leftist ones, are fuckin crazy.
