Is the blue in the bottom image the seas and oceans of the world or areas that China claims as the South China sea?
Ramming Philippines ships in Phillipines waters is hardly peaceful conduct.
Don't get me wrong, USA are horrific and absolutely need to be held to account but that doesn't mean China are good guys. All major world powers act like dicks to maintain their own interests.
Oh, and since when is China socialist? The weather disparity there is hardly people's ownership of the means of production.
Includes Korea for America. Doesn't include Korea for China.
I'm starting to think this is total horseshit guys
Ah yes, China helping Korea liberate itself from the US invasion is occupation. I'm starting to think I want whatever drugs Fleur is having.
@yogthos
well... if the map also shows where the US has acted clandestinely for its own imperialist purposes, the map gets a little redder.Stark comparison but China regularly has skirmishes with India on India's side of the border.
During the first and second Afghan civil-war there were also border skirmishes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
Unrelated to China, but why is the Vietnam War listed as Indecisive or unclear outcome?
List of wars being involved in is not a list of countries being invaded and occupied, nice try though.
Except that it's not. China's development has been overwhelmingly peaceful, and China has played a positive role around the globe helping many other nations develop and improve their standard of living. On the other hand, the US has been at war throughout all of its miserable existence, and is responsible for carrying out countless crimes against humanity around the globe. It remains the greatest threat to human existence today.
the map is far more accurate than it is not though
Come on, Yog, we can hold ourselves to a higher standard than this. It'd be so easy to just color in Vietnam and then you'd be set, but by posting it in its current form you are actively lying.
I think there's a difference between invasion/occupation and a minor border skirmish. Like yeah it could've been more accurate, but it does get the point across. 🤷
If I was just complaining about border skirmishes, then I'd mention India or something. The attack on Vietnam was more than just a "minor border skirmish".
Well, feel free to explain how the attack on Vietnam constitutes an occupation. Are you suggesting China's military action was carried out with the intent of annexing a part of Vietnam?
Come on, you're more well-read than this. You know that military occupation and annexation are not the same thing.
Eh, I think you can illustrate your point a bit better, comrade. The map goes from good agitprop to bad when it is counterable by liberals and leftists alike. I agree with your general point on this post, so I don't think the point itself is bad, but it could be better elaborated on with an actual map that shows what it says it does. Just my opinion.
The top one is taken from a website called vividmaps where it's countries the USA has had some sort of conflict with
List of wars being involved in is not a list of countries being invaded and occupied, nice try though.
The bottom map is just a white map.
Garbage meme 1/5
Yep, it's pretty bad for agitprop, even if I agree that the PRC has had really peaceful development all things considered, and the US is a genocidal empire, this map gets in the way of that messaging.
That's fair, I like the concept of the map hence why I shared it, but I agree it would be better if it was more accurate. Perhaps worth making a better one.
I think that's a good idea! Reality speaks for itself, showing reality is the best agitprop.
I agree, and it is true that whenever agitprop has even minor inaccuracies then that's the only thing people will fixate on.
Yeah, apart from other areas of china (if you can call those "invasions and occupations") there's only been one time they've invaded another country and that was Vietnam in 1979.
this Tibet? https://www.historicly.net/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction
Look, can't we agree that neither country gives a shit about the working class? Nation states are so 20th century. Why not try something new and try dissolving the state and self organizing into communes that best reflect our beliefs and values?
That said... What do the different shades of colors mean in the top image? Only half fucked over?
No we can't because that's demonstrably false. The state in China clearly represents the interests of the majority.
90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes
The real (inflation-adjusted) incomes of the poorest half of the Chinese population increased by more than four hundred percent from 1978 to 2015, while real incomes of the poorest half of the US population actually declined during the same time period. https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23119/w23119.pdf
From 1978 to 2000, the number of people in China living on under $1/day fell by 300 million, reversing a global trend of rising poverty that had lasted half a century (i.e. if China were excluded, the world’s total poverty population would have risen) https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/China’s-Economic-Growth-and-Poverty-Reduction-Angang-Linlin/c883fc7496aa1b920b05dc2546b880f54b9c77a4
From 2010 to 2019 (the most recent period for which uninterrupted data is available), the income of the poorest 20% in China increased even as a share of total income. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.DST.FRST.20?end=2019&locations=CN&start=2008
By the end of 2020, extreme poverty, defined as living on under a threshold of around $2 per day, had been eliminated in China. According to the World Bank, the Chinese government had spent $700 billion on poverty alleviation since 2014. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/31/world/asia/china-poverty-xi-jinping.html
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience
People in China also enjoy high social mobility https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html
And finally, they have record household savings https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-jones-bank-earnings-01-12-2024/card/chinese-household-savings-hit-another-record-high-xqyky00IsIe357rtJb4j
Why not try something new and try dissolving the state and self organizing into communes that best reflect our beliefs and values?
The real question is why do anarchists have nothing to show aside from rhetoric for over a century. I'll take a functional worker state that actually improves lives of the people instead of living under dictatorship of capital while dreaming about unachievable utopia.
Because i want rail roads crossing the world and massive buildings and a global shipping network and all the things that are only possible because of states. If u want to return to monkee feel free but the rest of us would like to have a civilization. Fundamentally i disagree with ur stupid ideals even IF we put aside the reality of defending anything that working people build from capital.
Why not try something new and try dissolving the state and self organizing into communes that best reflect our beliefs and values?
Go ahead. If that works, I'd be delighted. Seems that all it ever ends up producing is a 15 person sex commune. When self-organizing commune lift a billion people from poverty and outmaneuver the US empire, I'll become an anarchist.
Personally I think a gradual transition towards statelessness is necessary, because people are currently used to living in a state and are generally quite skeptical of sudden rapid change, even if it would be purely positive. Even if the capitalists were eliminated tomorrow and their propaganda networks shut down immediately, the general populace would still be infected by their brainworms for at least a generation.
Look, can't we agree that neither country gives a shit about the working class?
I have almost the exact opposite take on China.
Shit government, surveil people, torture people, no internet-freedom.
Their huge massive redeeming feature os that they REALLY give a shit about their working class.
