[CW: SA, Carnism, Transphobia]

When we were together, my ex raised an excellent point where she spoke on a reason, besides the obvious incompatible ethics, as to why she refuses to date non-vegans.

This reason is that, since non-vegans not only support animals being violated on a daily basis, but they also make outlandish jusfications for it, she cannot wholeheartedly trust that non-vegans will have the ability to understand, respect, and value consent.

That stood out to me because I definitely relate to that particular angle, especially since both of us are survivors of SA, but there is another angle that I apply this kind of thinking to: being anti-oppression.

I can speak on this from experience as well. Me and my ex encountered a carnist "leftist" who exploited the shit out of the "privilege" argument, i.e., she accused vegans of being "privileged" people who "aggressively" promote animal liberation activism without caring about the marginalized. This woman, in particular, is a survivor of SA, and she was especially frustrated that my ex called the forceful breeding of non-human animals into existence exactly what it is...

This woman proceeded to gloss over the fact that my ex herself is a survivor of SA, and she called my ex inconsiderate for using the term "animal slavery" because my ex is white. However, when I, as a black person, weigh in and state that I agree with calling such exploitation "animal slavery," I got accused of being a "token," a "pawn," and a "simp for white supremacy." Mind you, this carnist "leftist" woman who was lashing out at us also happens to be white. She will exploit identity politics but only if it works for enabling her anti-vegan rubbish.

Here's what really got me, though. Since every single "argument" against veganism that she could offer hinges on accusing vegans of being hyperprivileged so that she could paint us as reactionary, it seemed like she was met with a dilemma when it came to how to abuse this line of thinking against me. It's not like she has much of a leg to stand on for accusing a highly intersectional individual like myself of using vegan advocacy as an abuse of privilege, right? I'm black, transfeminine, non-binary, pansexual, neurodivergent, poor as fuck, and I was disowned by my family of devout Catholic immigrants from an anti-LGBT country.

So what does she do instead? She misgenders me. She takes a clip of me giving my agreement with my ex's phrasing on what non-human animals go through sexually, omitting tons of important context, and she calls me, a transfeminine victim of SA, "a male vegan trivializing victims of SA." This conversation was through voice, and my voice isn't feminine, but even with that in mind, she herself knew that I'm transfeminine. What did she proceed to do when I pointed out the misgendering? She doubled down on her transphobia by falling back on the "sex/gender" distinction by saying "It's not misgendering because I called you a male and not a man," and she says that, by being a "male," I have "male privilege because all males have male privilege."

This experience completely fucking warped how seriously I can expect non-vegans to be opposed to oppression and bigotry. Even before this, I already had a shit ton of skepticism when it comes to believing that the leftists I interact with are genuine in what they preach, especially when they are white, cishet, male, neurotypical, wealthy, etc., but I'm adding another descriptor to this bunch: carnist.

In essence, you cannot, with authenticity, claim to be anti-oppression if you support it on your plate daily, and these people proved to me that if it lessens their feelings of guilt, it will bleed into them supporting certain kinds of discrimination against humans as well. Most frightening of all, I'm quite uncomfortable because, on some occasions, I have already seen this "vegans are privileged, inconsiderate white male bigots" kind of rhetoric from carnists on Hexbear too!

  • BeamBrain [he/him]M
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    edit-2
    5 days ago

    Carnism is liberalism and just like any other stripe of liberal, carnists will portray themselves as champions of marginalized people but will attempt to viciously silence any marginalized person they can't instrumentalize in support of their agenda.

  • hypercracker [he/him]
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    edit-2
    5 days ago

    This person sounds like someone who relies on being the most intersectionally-marginalized person in the room to bulldoze others and shield against being criticized or having to make arguments other than accusing others of having a privileged perspective. I've witnessed a couple of these meltdowns when they inevitably show their entire white ass (and it is almost always white) and are called out. Live by the sword, die by the sword. It is never pretty. It's unfortunate you encountered one of these people.

    • Angel [any]
      hexagon
      M
      ·
      5 days ago

      She admitted to being a college student and that her parents pay for all of her expenses to go to school. The fact that she is a cracKKKer LARPing as a leftist and pretending to oppose oppression is the cherry on top. Very much ironic for her to literally misgender me just to try to paint me as some kind of privileged identity relative to her. It shows how out-of-touch whites and cissies can be with what trans people of color typically endure.

      • hypercracker [he/him]
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        edit-2
        5 days ago

        Yeah it's fucking rough. I oscillate around how to manage people like this. They can be nucleation points for very toxic dynamics in leftist spaces that drive people away. Like conflict resolution is already incredibly hard and then you have these people who are whatever the exact opposite of having those skills are. But it is very difficult to construct reasons to kick them out of spaces. I agree it's hard to even define them as a leftist because their only vaguely left idea is an incredibly elaborate privilege hierarchy theory they've developed.

  • sneak100 [she/her]
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    6 days ago

    Great post, you make a very convincing argument order-of-lenin

    I'm at best an aspiring vegan, so really not one to talk, but I just can't imagine not seeing animal liberation as a desirable goal even in a general sense. If a vegan was telling me about something like that, I would try to take it to heart and channel it into some tangible action in my life. But I think I'm just baffled how anyone can be proud of being carnists at all, like why are you so attached to this nasty shit? I think it speaks to how (actually) privileged people (unlike the white upper middle class vegan majority /s) are so alergic to examining their place within systems of opression and growing as people and making changes in their own lives. "I used to do carnism with my grandma and it gives me good memories" becomes a valid counter to the continuation of real life suffering. And it's so telling that this same person just casually trotted out all the bigotry classics as soon as they had to defend their fucky position, no wonder you feel like you can't trust carnists to even know what consent is. Very valid and I'm sorry you had to endure that.

    • Angel [any]
      hexagon
      M
      ·
      5 days ago

      Supporting animal exploitation is fundamentally wrong, even if you do it under certain "humane conditions." Welfarism is irrelevant to veganism, and I'm not trying to entertain the harmful notion that exploiting animals in a way that's "better than factory farming" justifies it.

      Animals are individuals with their own interests, and they do not consent to being commodities, slaves, and resources for human beings. Every single culture in history has been carnistic, and carnism is inherently wrong. Trying to damage control this with comparative ethics about how some Indigenous practices involve exploiting animals more humanely completely misunderstands the vegan cause. Veganism is not necessarily about the environment either, so certain forms of animal exploitation being less damaging for the environment does not necessarily make them more ethical either.

      Also, either you know nothing about veganism or you're disingenuously bringing up the no-brainer fact that "just having a vegan diet doesn't address the bigger picture of more total animal liberation" as a concern trolling tactic that you hope stating will somehow makes individuals being carnists more acceptable.

      No shit. Veganism is not presented as the endgoal. To compare it to another justice issue like racism, simply refraining from supporting animal exploitation in your day-to-day life isn't tantamount to doing a grand revolutionary act that tears down all white supremacist power structures. It's the equivalent of simply abstaining from saying slurs.

      You shouldn't have treaded at all. If you're going to say stuff that is undeniably not "100% pro-vegan," you either do not know what veganism is about or you're doing that as a form of "no offense but" kind of communication in hoping that it'll make what you're saying less at odds with this community.

      Sorry, but not sorry, I'm not accepting your very misinformed attempts at trying to justify carnism here.

      This watch may benefit you.