My father in law is currently visiting extended family overseas in China. He flew in through Hong Kong, then spent three weeks traveling up the mainland by rail to Beijing and back again.

I'll preface this review of his visit by noting that he is a dyed-in-the-wool big-L Libertarian. He was part of Gary Johnson's Texas campaign staff in 2012 and personally introduced me to him that same year. He recommended "Road to Serfdom" to me in one of our first meetings. And he generally dismisses anything"socialist" as a trick to make people miserable.

Anyway, this is his take:

I’ve spent extensive time in the 3 largest cities in China and you can walk their streets freely without the slightest concern for violence.

I’m staying at my friend’s flat on the 4th floor of a 45 story high rise. It costs her $1000/mth. It’s nice but not opulent. My sister-in-law's less affluent uncle, who lives in Zhuhai had a much more modest apartment than this, yet he was happy, a wonderful host and you could walk his neighborhood without concern for your safety.

Shenzhen has the advantage of having been purpose built 60 years ago to be an extremely large city. Therefore the avenues are wide, with plenty of parks and common areas. Cab rides are super cheap in these very nice Chinese made electric cars. Everything is super clean.

Zhuhai too, is a beautiful attractive city but has a population of “only” 2.2 million, about the same as Houston.

The Chinese cities are superior to the US in a number of ways. If Trump were to actually visit, it would eat his heart out.

He's absolutely in love with China. We've heard similar praise of the mass transit system - speed, cleanliness, accessibility. He marveled at the effectively of civic planning - short, efficient commutes achieved by putting high ride housing right beside commercial and industrial sites. He repeatedly gawked at the absence of homelessness and poverty. He was thrilled with the museums in Beijing and Hong Kong. And, of course, had nothing but good things to say about the food.

Probably his biggest gripe is the cashless currency system (virtually everything is paid for with debit cards that are very difficult for a visitor to access). But otherwise, it has been something to see him come around so hard on a country he was deeply cynical towards for so long.

Just thought I'd share the virtues of a little cultural exchange.

  • JoeByeThen [he/him, they/them]
    ·
    18 days ago

    Do you think he's grasping there's a link between political ideology and outcome though? I've known conservative folks that have done trips like this else where and can never really connect A and B together, instead making all sorts of excuses about culture and whatnot for their positive experiences.

    • BashfulBob [none/use name]
      hexagon
      ·
      18 days ago

      Do you think he's grasping there's a link between political ideology and outcome though?

      He's the kind of guy who assumed Beijing in 2024 was going to be like Hong Kong in 1985. A lot of what stunned him was the level of public safety, cleanliness, and greenery.

      Will he come out of this thinking "Maybe the immortal science of Marxist-Leninists-Maoism has something to teach us?" Or will he simply conclude Chinese people are ethnically a master race? Idk. We'll see.

      all sorts of excuses about culture and whatnot for their positive experiences.

      Did not fill me with confidence when he floated a few comments about how homogeneous everyone was. "China is good because all Chinese people look the same to me" would be a very depressing conclusion to his journey.

      • 2Password2Remember [he/him]
        ·
        18 days ago

        Did not fill me with confidence when he floated a few comments about how homogeneous everyone was. "China is good because all Chinese people look the same to me" would be a very depressing conclusion to his journey.

        if this comes up, hit him with the fact that they have 55 minority ethnic groups and that what's actually happening is that he just can't tell them apart. not guaranteed to work but it's worth trying

        Death to America

        • BashfulBob [none/use name]
          hexagon
          ·
          18 days ago

          hit him with the fact that they have 55 minority ethnic groups

          I've played this game with the reddit-logo tier folks. "No, they don't. It's all Han Chinese majority for everything. They are homogenous because I cannot tell any of them apart." You'll see the same game played with Japan (nobody wants to acknowledge the Ainu, the Ryūkyūans, or any other ethnic variants common to the islands). We can identify forty-seven different variants of German, but some of the largest populations on the planet are clones of one another.

      • JoeByeThen [he/him, they/them]
        ·
        18 days ago

        Did not fill me with confidence when he floated a few comments about how homogeneous everyone was.

        Ya, that's the big one I was thinking of. That's always why Norway can have Nordic socialism but we can't have healthcare or some shit.

        big-honk

      • Boise_Idaho [null/void, any]
        ·
        edit-2
        18 days ago

        Will he come out of this thinking "Maybe the immortal science of Marxist-Leninists-Maoism has something to teach us?" Or will he simply conclude Chinese people are ethnically a master race? Idk. We'll see.

        He'll just say that Chinese people are such a superior ethnicity and have such a superior culture that even the commies couldn't fuck it up. Know it from personal experience. They'll say shit like, "Mao was an authoritarian dictator who hated Chinese culture and wanted to get rid of it with the GPCR, but Chinese culture is so deeply-rooted and everlasting that even a dictator like Mao couldn't get rid of it."

        Most Chinese libs who think China is capitalist believe this on some level. And it makes perfect logical sense. If you think China is capitalist and China is surpassing the West that is also capitalist, what is the main difference between the two?

        Capitalism with Chinese characteristics > Capitalism with Western characteristics
        Capitalism with Chinese characteristics > Capitalism with Western characteristics
        Capitalism with Chinese characteristics culture > Capitalism with Western characteristics culture
        Chinese culture > Western culture

        This is the ultimate irony about people who say China is capitalist. They're basically advocating for Chinese chauvinism.

    • Enjoyer_of_Games [he/him]
      ·
      18 days ago

      I've known a few conservative people making similar remarks about Singapore (they only ever visit the tourist areas) and the take away is always it's safe and clean because it's so strict and authoritarian (ie the authoritarians banned my bubble gum treats) . The only thing stopping them outright saying "Mussolini made the trains run on time" is a level of historical ignorance where they don't even know the propaganda version of history.