• M0oP0o@mander.xyz
    ·
    1 year ago

    If they took him out before the deal was made sure, this soon after just shows weakness and a lack of credibility. They did the equivalent to getting into a bar fight, talking it out instead and then in front of every one sucker punching the other guy.

    • Zrc
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      deleted by creator

      • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
        ·
        1 year ago

        They were losing a war to a bunch of tractors and their flagship was sunk by a country without a navy.

        It's not Russian weakness, it's Russian stupidity.

            • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Jokerfication: when you kind of pity someone for being this propagandized, but laugh at them because it's pretty funny

              jokerfied

              • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                ·
                1 year ago

                Yes... I am the propagandized one.

                Not the rural poor being marched off to die for half the price of a lada they'll never receive for an oligarch's pride.

                All I can say is: Please, PLEASE! Make sure they keep marching.

                • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  You claim they started with tractors. This is utter nonsense; the AFU started the war as a legitimate military, especially after it took the decade following the Minsk agreements to arm up in anticipation of this war.

                  You also claim they are pushing Russia back despite the front not moving appreciably in the past year, even during the latest vaunted counteroffensive.

                  • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Remember, libs dont know anything about the context pre-war. It was all Putins desire to conquer ukraine.

                  • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    You claim they started with tractors. This is utter nonsense; the AFU started the war as a legitimate military, especially after it took the decade following the Minsk agreements to arm up in anticipation of this war.

                    Russia used to call itself the 2nd strongest military on Earth.

                    Now they're clearly the 2nd strongest military in Ukraine. And they're sliding down.

                    You might not understand this, but they literally only survived because everyone was terrified of them, 'Crazy Ivan' who snaps and does something stupid.

                    That illusion SHATTERED with the failure to take Kyiv, it shattered and Europe's fear turned to rage, rage at being intimidated for decades by a clearly broken joke of a power.

                    Until last year Russia wasn't worth our interest, there was nothing there of value or threat, it was a far away, annoying country but it was someone else's problem.

                    Now, Europe wants to watch them burn for fun.

                    If they hadn't invaded Ukraine they would have been able to hold this illusion for decades more while the oligarchs continued to rob the country to deposit into British banks, but now, Russia is a threat that needs to be dealt with.

                    Fortunately, it's not much of a threat, and this shouldn't take too long, the only reason it's taking this long right now is because we can only help indirectly through Ukraine.

                    But Russia is stupid, hopefully they'll do something Russian and pick a fight with the rest of NATO, because that's just what they do.

                    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      Now they're clearly the 2nd strongest military in Ukraine.

                      Delusions like this are sending Ukranians to pointless deaths right now.

                      The worst part is you will never stop to consider the implications of being so wrong on this when the war is finally resolved (with Russia and Ukraine in basically the same territories as now). Instead, you'll toss this one in the "history" pile with Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc., you know, the wars where you tell yourself you would have seen through the propaganda had you witnessed it in real time. Then you'll cheerlead the next war because It's A Good One This Time.

                      • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        Delusions like this are sending Ukranians to pointless deaths right now.

                        Delusions like "a 3 hour special military operation"?

                        Yeah, I'm the one with delusions, not the country that's shooting itself in the dick, and literally assassinated several of its citizens in this post without any due process whatsoever.

                        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          Delusions like "a 3 hour special military operation"

                          Yes, you have deluded yourself into thinking Russia said this. I guess reddit said Russia said it, so that's basically the same thing, right?

                          And tell me more about your thoughts on countries that assassinate their own citizens without due process. What kind of countries do that?

                            • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                              ·
                              edit-2
                              1 year ago

                              Putin reportedly said. “But if I wanted to, I could take Kiev in two weeks.”

                              Besides the issue of not being able to verify this was actually said, "if I wanted to I could take Kiev in two weeks" is a lot different from "this entire operation will be over in three hours." "If I wanted to" in fact implies taking Kiev was not a goal, which aligns with it not being officially stated as a goal.

                                • GarbageShoot [he/him]
                                  ·
                                  edit-2
                                  1 year ago

                                  You put it in quotes and called it a special military op instead of a tour, so it was a little bit obfuscated

                                  Edit: not that you meant to, of course, but it is what it is

                                  As an aside, I think Putin was probably right, but under the condition that he carpet bombs multiple major cities from the first available moment. The war is brutal, but Russia has not been carpet-bombing for a litany of reasons (and it is good that they aren't)

                                  • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                                    ·
                                    1 year ago

                                    its hilarious people who goad putin for not waging war like america does, which is just to kill everyone without consideration

                                • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                                  ·
                                  1 year ago

                                  Lmao so now you're claiming Putin was using some old English idiom in a private conversation with a Portuguese politician? Then said politician quoted Putin as saying a different phrase?

                                  Truly wonderful, the mind of a liberal is.

                            • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                              ·
                              1 year ago

                              HA. Sometimes I think people forget how time works. That we did not watch russia make these statements in real time and somehow reddit would come into it as if its mere existence is an augment.

                                • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                  ·
                                  1 year ago

                                  Here you go to start:

                                  https://web.archive.org/web/20220308032650/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67903

                                  Parts to note:

                                  "I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case."

                        • bagend
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          1 year ago

                          deleted by creator

                    • barrbaric [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      But Russia is stupid, hopefully they'll do something Russian and pick a fight with the rest of NATO, because that's just what they do.

                      I hope they don't because that would in all likelihood escalate to nuclear war.

                  • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Russia is 5x the size of Ukraine, and called itself the 2nd most powerful army on the planet.

                    Now it's the second most powerful army in Ukraine.

                    You're bragging after they got their ass handed to them by their version of Canadians.

                    • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      no ones bragging here, the material reality of the situation is ukraines casualities are 3:1 and russia remains in control of the conflict and where the lines are; every ukranian advancement recently has come at heavy cost

                      • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        no ones bragging here, the material reality of the situation is ukraines casualities are 3:1 and russia remains in control of the conflict and where the lines are; every ukranian advancement recently has come at heavy cost

                        That's not even close to true, unless you count civilians, which isn't surprising because they're literally fighting in their country.

                        So yes, be proud, Russia has butchered more civilians!

                    • GarbageShoot [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      Russia is 5x the size of Ukraine,

                      Consider how much of that is just tundra.

                  • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Well by the conditions the russian federation placed 18 months ago would mean that yes Ukraine is winning. The fact the front lines are static does not mean what you think it does.

                    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      And what were those conditions Russia stated as its aims at the beginning of the war?

                        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          That was never a stated (or likely even an unstated) goal of Russia.

                          • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                            ·
                            1 year ago

                            Yes it was stated many times. The broadcasts should still be around if you want to check.

                                      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
                                        ·
                                        1 year ago

                                        There is now a reply. I don't want to shock you, so make sure you're sitting down: in no way does the source support the view that Russia sought:

                                        The return of Ukraine in its entirety to the russian nation for one.

                                        Here is the quote, to save you scrolling up:

                                        https://web.archive.org/web/20220308032650/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67903 Parts to note:

                                        “I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case.

                                  • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                    ·
                                    1 year ago

                                    Sorry I replied to the wrong comment, my bad.

                                    https://web.archive.org/web/20220308032650/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67903 Parts to note:

                                    “I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case.”

                                    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                                      ·
                                      1 year ago

                                      The return of Ukraine in its entirety to the russian nation for one.

                                      That's what you claimed as one of Russia's war goals. You can see the excerpt you quoted isn't anything like that, right?

                                      I'm not even trying to do some sick own or anything. You do see the difference between the stated aims and the propaganda circulating about "Russia wants to conquer the whole of Ukraine," don't you?

                            • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                              ·
                              1 year ago

                              why should I give one shit about what russians goals where at the start of the war, the reality is its a meat grinder and the location of said meat grinder requires ukraine to move through it to advance, russia are setting the terms of this conflict and are in control.

                              • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                ·
                                1 year ago

                                Why have you gave one shit indeed, its not like that was the whole reason to invade or anything.

                                According to the stated russian objectives they have already lost this conflict, time will tell if Ukraine also looses.

                                • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                                  ·
                                  edit-2
                                  1 year ago

                                  I dont care about either sides goals because im not naive enough to buy into military propoganda, which the goals are.

                                  During a war nothing either side says matters, you fatally misunderstand what happens to the media when a war breaks out, it just becomes another instrument of war, and as such nothing can be trusted but the satalite footage of where the war is and boots on the ground reports of people there, everything else is bullshit.

                                  • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                    ·
                                    1 year ago

                                    Ok please enlighten me on the winning condition for russia to end this conflict in their favour. No need for "military propoganda" just how does this end in your mind?

                                      • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                        ·
                                        1 year ago

                                        Ok, so what does that entail? I don't think you can just jump on TV and call peace. Ukraine has stated many times that they will not agree to any peace deal without the boarders going back to 2014, russia has stated that will not fly.

                                        Even if you assume its a full on meat grinder for both sides, how does russia win in this situation? They claimed this military operation was to de-milliteraze Ukraine, the opposite has happened. They claimed this military operation was to put a stop to NATO expansion, the opposite has happened. They claimed this military operation was to protect the Donbas people, now they are the group who has suffered the largest casualties in this conflict. They claimed this military operation was to ensure the russian people prosperity and security, the opposite has happened.

                                        • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                                          ·
                                          1 year ago

                                          what it entails are the borders freezing and everyone getting bored of sending 17 year olds through minefields

                                          east ukraine will never be part of ukraine again, do you really think there is a going back now over a million people have died?

                                          • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                            ·
                                            edit-2
                                            1 year ago

                                            That is my point, there is no going back. Even if Ukraine before this was on shaky ground as a nation they are now determined to fight on and on and on. russia also has no credibility as shown today, and this has been stated many times by Ukraine that any treaty with russia is worth less then the paper it is printed on.

                                            So I ask again, how does russia get anyone to show up and sign anything? How do they force peace?

                                              • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                                ·
                                                1 year ago

                                                That at least is an answer, and while I don't think it will happen (the collective west is doing to well from this) I do appreciate an honest attempt.

                                                • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                                                  ·
                                                  1 year ago

                                                  Most of the collective west is currently undergoing a thinly veiled reccession and electing more and more unstable forms of government, like the neo-nazi gov of italy, the shitshow that is UK politics (which is doing worse economically than russia, a country at war) and the clown parade that is the american govs complete inability to do anything for its own people.

                                                  There is already talk of pulling aid from Ukraine in many EU states like Austria and the US is starting to pivot towards Taiwan and has been calling this recent push 'Ukraines last chance', which they are admitting is failing.

                                                  The paymasters are calling time.

                                                  • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                                    ·
                                                    1 year ago

                                                    Yeah, I don't see it what with the re armament of most of these western countries. There does not seem to be a lack of last gen equipment to send.

                                                    • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                                                      ·
                                                      1 year ago

                                                      there is no re-armament, none of the western ecomonies are geared for war, only the american military is and they are done sharing there surplus.

                                                      all that the west had to give was what it could afford to give away from its reserves without crippling there own defence sectors, russia has a active war ecomony, the west does not.

                                                      • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                                                        ·
                                                        1 year ago

                                                        https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/ukraine-and-the-eclipse-of-pacifism/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2023/01/13/commentary/japan-commentary/japan-rearmament/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-02/europe-s-peace-dividend-is-over-why-rearmament-is-not-that-easy

                                                        There is no war in ba sing se

                                                        • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                                                          ·
                                                          edit-2
                                                          1 year ago

                                                          Show

                                                          cltr+f'd 'aid' on your first article, no results (other than it hitting other words with aid in it)

                                                          that article is literally just about the military industrial complex being spun up in western europe instead of shit like housing lmao, nowhere does it suggest that ukraine will be receiving any of that, only that the money will be going to 'defence', this is not a war ecomony and I suspect you dont know what that is.

                                                          furthermore I suspect most of that money will be spent replenishing all of the things they just gave away, you realize

        • Zrc
          ·
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          deleted by creator

          • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            No, they were losing to tractors, and Moskva was sunk without a navy.

            Now they're getting real gear and training to play.

            The only thing Russia ever wins are Darwin awards. Fucking being proud of almost hurting a country a fraction of your size right next door, like the US being proud of conquering Ottawa.

            Say hi to those F-16s for me.

            • Zrc
              ·
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              deleted by creator

              • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                ·
                1 year ago

                They don't need a ghost of Kyiv, they know the ultimate weakness of all Russians:

                https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/13hcf63/ukrainians_allegedly_dropped_bottles_of_vodka_at/

                You guys are going to suffer, and I would feel bad if you hadn't started this whole nightmare.

                • Zrc
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  3 months ago

                  deleted by creator

                  • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    All of Europe hates Russia with an all-consuming passion, except sometimes Serbia.

                    And... that's where you live! That's like all my neighbors thinking I'm a piece of shit and me saying "Oh yeah, well there are people in North Korea who don't hate me!"

                    • Flaps [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      I live in Europe and this

                      All of Europe hates Russia with an all-consuming passion

                      is just bullshit my guy

                        • Flaps [he/him]
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          1 year ago

                          Haha damn should go tell that one in Iraq, you just hate who you're told to hate

                          Really really not.

                          Doesn't make it true, your ass is not a source

                    • Zrc
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      3 months ago

                      deleted by creator

                    • Zrc
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      3 months ago

                      deleted by creator

                        • Zrc
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          3 months ago

                          deleted by creator

                          • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
                            ·
                            1 year ago

                            See this is why no one can take you people as anything but a joke. Multiple people have asked for your opinion, position, argument, or any thing that would allow someone to seriously discuss anything, but you just reply with a joke, meme or provocation. What inside joke is this law enforcement agent from another country have to do with anything?

            • captcha [any]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Say hi to those F-16s for me

              We're literally dumping decades old hardware on them just so we can keep justify buying more F-35s.

                • captcha [any]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  We built those to fight evil Russians

                  data-laughing

                • duderium [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  We built those to fight evil Russians

                  At what point do you realize that you have transformed into the jingoistic goobers who were cheerleading the Iraq War during the W. years?

                • Kuori [she/her]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  ah, there's the fascist lurking within every liberal. you should follow your leader

                  • InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Not that you have shame? But this post is literally about putin assassinating a citizen of his in cold blood with no trial alongside several other innocent bystanders.

                    And you tried to use the word fascist to someone on the internet.

                    • Romeo [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      The people that died were fascists and Mercs, why do you care how they died? Do you hate Russia or not? This was a truly successful denazification action if you wanna get silly with it.

                • FakeNewsForDogs [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  “Evil Russians.” Jesus Christ. As if the West did not rehabilitate European fascists immediately after WW2 and end up on the side of imperialism in every conflict around the world for the rest of the century and beyond. Many of which they themselves instigated. Get a fucking grip.

                    • FakeNewsForDogs [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      Definitely did not miss that. Whatever you think about the USSR, you cannot, without grotesque distortions of history, say that they rehabilitated European fascism. They executed nazis while the western powers were giving them citizenship, jobs, money, and weapons. And if you think soviet efforts to support revolutionary movements around the globe were “imperialism,” I’m not sure what to tell you besides please read a book.

                        • FakeNewsForDogs [he/him]
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          Lol. Those people were basically brought over at gunpoint as war reparations. You think that’s the same thing as paper clip and gladio?

                            • FakeNewsForDogs [he/him]
                              ·
                              1 year ago

                              How do you not see how gladio ties into this? It was basically the US changing sides in a war in Europe that never really ended. WW2 was about competition between imperial powers, and communism versus capitalism (as that struggle led directly to the rise of fascism). The end of the war resolved the imperialist competition, but not the question of communism. The US immediately turned around and started giving the European fascists guns, money and power after they no longer posed an expansionist threat, because fascists were still the most staunch anti communists. Again, this is why the soviets executed fascist war criminals, and the west didn’t even prosecute most of them. They became allies instead. It foreshadowed the west’s willingness to support the most brutal right wingers elsewhere around the world for the rest of the century to choke out any resistance to western neocolonial domination.

                                • FakeNewsForDogs [he/him]
                                  ·
                                  1 year ago

                                  I see how you haven't responded in any meaningful way to my broader point that your "evil russians" statement about cold war military equipment is dumb as shit. But I get the sense you think there is someone scoring this debate and that you get a point for being a clever boy. Great job. I concede. Later.

            • GarbageShoot [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Fucking being proud of almost hurting a country a fraction of your size right next door, like the US being proud of conquering Ottawa.

              Look up the US attack on Grenada

                • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  The enemy is both strong and weak at the same time. Russians are simultaneously cowardly, repulsive and primitive (and evil, according to you), while also being barely held at bay because their innate savage brutality lets them ignore casualties, but like in an evil way, not the good heroic way we ignore casulaties when we drive our tanks headfirst into minefields. Gotcha.

      • SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        Losing multiple cities to a tiny domestic invading force of mercenaries after completely losing control of said force due to lack of command discipline, and finally only being able to force them to disband by threatening the families of the mercenaries involved isn’t exactly a sign of strength, though, is it? It’s not exactly what we’d expect of a professional modern military.

        It would be like if Erik Prince took his Blackwater army and started marching on Washington, capturing towns along the way, and the US army was helpless to stop them until the American government threatened to hunt down and kill the family members of Blackwater mercenaries.

        That would be considered unusual, and not really a sign of political or military strength.

        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
          ·
          1 year ago

          If Erik Prince marched Blackwater through some American cities and -- instead of sending the U.S. military to start a hot war on its own soil -- American leadership pressured Prince and Blackwater to go home, would you be calling the president weak for not turning Virginia into a battlefield?

          • Alaskaball [comrade/them]A
            ·
            1 year ago

            would you be calling the president weak for not turning Virginia into a battlefield?

            hexbear emojis

            side-eye-1

            side-eye-2

          • SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            I would think American leadership completely dysfunctional if they allowed that situation to occur. If they did not have enough command authority to trust that the US military wouldn’t confront Prince with immediate and overwhelming force when ordered, the US would be a laughingstock. The scenario is borderline unimaginable in a developed country with anything resembling a modern political infrastructure.

            Don’t get me wrong. I love Russia. I was originally trained as a Sovietologist, when that was still a thing you could be an -ologist of. I could talk for hours about strategic weapons systems and Russian prep for NBC warfare and what the politics in the Kremlin were like under the troika approach and why the fascistic tendencies of Putin in rejecting Russian political history in favor of personal enrichment and plundering the nation have irrevocably broken Russian politics.

            But that’s for another day. Putin responded the way dictators in developing nations do, not like someone who actually has command and control over their modern military forces. I mean, it’s a Russian tradition to threaten the families of people who publicly disagree with leadership. In the US, the forces brought to bear against Blackwater’s attempted putsch would have been so overwhelming that his own men would have arrested him. But as much as I hate Blackwater and think Prince should probably be in prison for war crimes, their cadre was recruited from a different class of people than Wagner.

            • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              the US military wouldn’t confront Prince with immediate and overwhelming force

              You realize that's the worst-case scenario of the incident we're talking about, right? A sane leader would want to avoid starting a pitched battle in their backyard at all costs, and that's entirely independent of speculation about control over the military.

              The scenario is borderline unimaginable in a developed country with anything resembling a modern political infrastructure.

              We had a half-assed putsch of our own not even three years ago.

              • SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml
                ·
                1 year ago

                A sane leader would want to avoid starting a pitched battle…

                A competent government would have prevented it from occurring. The IS government is hardly a model of efficiency, and that goes double for the military. However, it doesn’t happen here because it’s not something that’s organizationally enabled. Blackwater would be slaughtered in hours, for instance. I absolutely hate Blackwater, I think Prince is a fascist just like Prigo who would absolutely pull a Wagner if he thought he could. He knows he’s better off using bribes to gain power and wealth.

                And I wouldn’t call J6 a putsch if we’re using that term in context to describe a military invasion by heavily armed forces gone rogue. But even if we do, the point we are discussing is that it is characteristic of a crap-tier government to be unable to put it down. Trump left the US government almost unable to put down a riot that he invoked and that consisted of a few thousand angry but mostly unarmed rednecks. Again, it was on a different scale, but once a more competent government was in place we saw a thousand arrests, not a threat to kill the families of the J6 rioters. It was a planned violent coup, but the plan was absolute shit because the planners are absolute idiots.