August 27 2023 Black Rock Desert, NEVADA - "30 seconds, send your leader to my vehicle, let's talk, get off the fucken road" - Tribal Ranger announced on the...
This is liberal of me but degrowth is just not possible politically. It's like how a general strike sign or Twitter post doesn't do anything, because a general strike needs unions to help strikers stay fed and housed, but 100x worse. If you tell people that they can't have a hot shower every day, because the energy required to heat the water of every person on earth would cook the earth too much, they will not give up hot showers. You cannot implement degrowth without coercion from a socialist state which, at best, gets legitimacy from most people saying "well I hate doing this, but the only way for the planet to survive is if we all sacrifice together". Under capitalism it's a nonstarter of course, people won't even wear masks during a pandemic let alone make sacrifices. But there is not going to be a socialist state with this kind of power in the US for decades, if ever.
You can probably get some half-assed solution where people accept things that nudge them in the direction of less consumption. Bikeable cities. Showers that turn off every few seconds, like the ones at campgrounds, to encourage you to use less hot water. But actual degrowth is so far from possible right now, in the complete absence of any ecosocialist power, that asking for it seems like putting the cart before the horse to me.
It's kind of like veganism. Some people are tenderhearted idealists like me, but if you look at a group of individuals they're not going to give up eating flesh for anything immaterial. Can we get state pushed/mandated veganism? Well, not without a state. And we can't rally around the final goal because by definition it's not popular yet (otherwise we wouldn't need a state to do it), so must start with other vegan goals. Curb the worst excesses of the climate criminals, build up a movement. Slow down growth. Then we can try to implement degrowth.
I can't rip on them too much because they're out there doing shit and I'm in bed on my phone. But this is why I don't like degrowth. Conceptually it's ok.
P.S. also it is basically full communism, in terms of how vigorously capital will oppose it. GDP is basically 1:1 with energy consumption
there has been a problem of self described communist opposing degrowth under communism
3, I mean My hope Is that the global south will get together, build socialism and bring the imperial core crashing to its knees. I want every drop of resources to be used for the betterment of people in the global south and only after every need has been met they will sell their leftovers to the imperial core at ridiculously exorbitant rates forcing degrowth upon them. but thats just what i fantasize about.
Degrowth is sometimes lumped in with eugenicist talking points which can trigger reflexive pushback. I always like to reply to “overpopulation” concerns with “let’s start with white Americans to get the most bang for our buck”
It’s a relatively small portion of humanity living unsustainable lifestyles, and if we removed the profit motive that would be even smaller.
The conversation is moot though, degrowth is happening whether we like it or not. Laihana is degrowth.
The conversation is moot though, degrowth is happening whether we like it or not. Laihana is degrowth.
truly wild take lol. no hate lol thats just too doomer and horrifying for me that the world will just burn and hundreds of people will die and that will fix everything
Hey sorry for the late reply I was offline (amazing tbh)
I don’t think it’s so much a question of it fixing anything it’s just the inevitable outcome of carrying on the way that we are. If we are to avoid the worst consequences of climate change we need to radically restructure society and learn to do with less particularly in the imperial core. Not talking return to monke either, more like no blueberries in December. No more driving your SUV 30 minutes to go buy groceries. No more private planes for billionaires.
Needless to say this will require a completely new government and a centralized economy and redistribution of resources. But planned or unplanned it’s gonna be degrowth either way. We are like a car speeding towards a concrete barrier. Whether or not we choose to apply the brakes, we are stopping.
This is liberal of me but degrowth is just not possible politically. It's like how a general strike sign or Twitter post doesn't do anything, because a general strike needs unions to help strikers stay fed and housed, but 100x worse. If you tell people that they can't have a hot shower every day, because the energy required to heat the water of every person on earth would cook the earth too much, they will not give up hot showers. You cannot implement degrowth without coercion from a socialist state which, at best, gets legitimacy from most people saying "well I hate doing this, but the only way for the planet to survive is if we all sacrifice together". Under capitalism it's a nonstarter of course, people won't even wear masks during a pandemic let alone make sacrifices. But there is not going to be a socialist state with this kind of power in the US for decades, if ever.
You can probably get some half-assed solution where people accept things that nudge them in the direction of less consumption. Bikeable cities. Showers that turn off every few seconds, like the ones at campgrounds, to encourage you to use less hot water. But actual degrowth is so far from possible right now, in the complete absence of any ecosocialist power, that asking for it seems like putting the cart before the horse to me.
It's kind of like veganism. Some people are tenderhearted idealists like me, but if you look at a group of individuals they're not going to give up eating flesh for anything immaterial. Can we get state pushed/mandated veganism? Well, not without a state. And we can't rally around the final goal because by definition it's not popular yet (otherwise we wouldn't need a state to do it), so must start with other vegan goals. Curb the worst excesses of the climate criminals, build up a movement. Slow down growth. Then we can try to implement degrowth.
I can't rip on them too much because they're out there doing shit and I'm in bed on my phone. But this is why I don't like degrowth. Conceptually it's ok.
P.S. also it is basically full communism, in terms of how vigorously capital will oppose it. GDP is basically 1:1 with energy consumption
1.I think we understand degrowth very differently
3, I mean My hope Is that the global south will get together, build socialism and bring the imperial core crashing to its knees. I want every drop of resources to be used for the betterment of people in the global south and only after every need has been met they will sell their leftovers to the imperial core at ridiculously exorbitant rates forcing degrowth upon them. but thats just what i fantasize about.
Degrowth is sometimes lumped in with eugenicist talking points which can trigger reflexive pushback. I always like to reply to “overpopulation” concerns with “let’s start with white Americans to get the most bang for our buck”
It’s a relatively small portion of humanity living unsustainable lifestyles, and if we removed the profit motive that would be even smaller.
The conversation is moot though, degrowth is happening whether we like it or not. Laihana is degrowth.
truly wild take lol. no hate lol thats just too doomer and horrifying for me that the world will just burn and hundreds of people will die and that will fix everything
Hey sorry for the late reply I was offline (amazing tbh)
I don’t think it’s so much a question of it fixing anything it’s just the inevitable outcome of carrying on the way that we are. If we are to avoid the worst consequences of climate change we need to radically restructure society and learn to do with less particularly in the imperial core. Not talking return to monke either, more like no blueberries in December. No more driving your SUV 30 minutes to go buy groceries. No more private planes for billionaires.
Needless to say this will require a completely new government and a centralized economy and redistribution of resources. But planned or unplanned it’s gonna be degrowth either way. We are like a car speeding towards a concrete barrier. Whether or not we choose to apply the brakes, we are stopping.