hey just jumping in here i actually agree with both of you but i think you guys are coming in from a place were both of the things you guys are saying can't be true at the same time, which i disagree, like in my view israel is vasal state and it also lobbies america, like israel existence complements the american state interests which are at the moment not lose the middle east to china silk road plan, keep selling guns to countries and not lose their place as the hegemon, and i don't think that israel could say no to america in any sense if american interests ever came to a blow with israeli interests and the lobbying is also a thing it makes politicians that have interests in having israel support win their elections and so they can keep the american interests the same as theirs like i don't see how these two things couldn't happen at the same time things tend to have more than one reason like a lot of people are involved