You seem to be viewing this like its sports, I don't fucking care about who you think are "undoubtably" bad guys, as far as I'm concerned America is worse. It's getting people killed, for lines on a map, and you guys brought this on.
Why is it the US's fault that Russia decided that Ukraine should be theirs? Does Russia have a moral obligation to not be relegated to a regional power?
We are taking about good and bad, and whether it was bad or good that Russia invaded. Those are moral questions. So yes, we can ask whether the actions of a nation are moral.
No we are not. You are talking about good and bad because that's the level you engage with politics.
I say it's asenine to attribute moral character to the citizens of a nation of millions unless you're really prepared to have your glass house targetted.
Are Americans guilty of its crimes? Should people consider Americans immoral because of all the genocides, slavery, and ongoing mass incarcerations?
Hmm, I see abandoning morality as bad. Actually, whataboutism to just call everyone bad is a common tactic used by neo Nazis to say Germany wasn't that bad.
I'm trying to acknowledge that they are terrible while still staying on topic. What would you rather me do? Not condemn Russia because the US has done totally unrelated bad things? That doesn't make any sense.
this is literally a post about USA bad, where you are harping "russia bad" out of nowhere. Russia is not the point of the post in any way. You are the one off topic.
Also the US is related to almost every conflict on earth since the creation of the CIA, and are definitely ones doing bad shit in ukraine.
I said the US was good for helping Ukraine against Russia. People responded with 'actualy Russia good,' so I responded to them. I don't disagree with the post that the US has done bad things. I disagree with the comments that the US can has and will always do the morally worst thing possible, so much so that all other countries look great by comparison.
Hexbear is agreeing on one thing: the war in ukraine is bad, and america is directly contributing to the starting and continuation of the conflict. They've been funding Nazi movements in ukraine since literally right after the end of ww2. The US used ukraine to poke the bear on purpose, it didn't think russia would react, and it did. Now all the empires are at war.
but you have crossed the fucking line
how dare you compare the two. Russia is no fucking friend, but you dare compare it to the USA? The American Empire? You ask us to side with them on anything?
America has done the most morally despicable things at almost every opportunity. They tried to starve cuba by dropping the swine flu on them. They pardoned the japanese and german fascist government officials to establish puppet states to use agianst the soviets. They fucking used officials and data from Unit 731 (a division so evil it will make you almost throw up just reading it) to kill people in vietnam! You think they came up with all their chemical warfare out of nowhere? America has killed countless african anti-colonial movements and chosen to side with the apartheid regimes of South Africa and Israel at every opportunity. They helped their buddy france to maintain their colonial hegemony over the african people, and then literally tried to assassinate the prime minister of France when he didn't want to kill as many people. They literally hired a Nazi concentration camp leader called "the butcher" to become a leader in NASA! THE BUTCHER! They hired a man named "hitler's favorite commmando" who took part in a mission to rescue mussolini at one point. HE WAS THE NAZI SOLDIER! He was hired by the CIA to be deployed on anti communist hit squads.
They've couped every nation in south America at least once, and most of the ones in central America. The leaders were always ones that were trying to do internal buildup programs, did basic workers rights protections, or respected democratic process and let communists in government if they were voted in. Fidel and the sandinistas are the only ones to have survived. Not for lack of trying, the CIA tried to kill Fidel 600 times over the course of his life. Of those in the majority they did get, did they replace those leaders with law abiding, human rights loving individuals? Nope Fascist military juntas and criminal syndicate leaders. They would carry out reigns of terror that would KILL MILLIONS! OF COMMUNISTS! Of anyone adjacent to them! Friends, colleges, friends of friends, it didn't matter! Millions dead!
Indonesia they supported a fascist junta leader to lead a hostile takeover of moderate Indonesia. Because they dared to have communists in government, to have a progressive government, to side with the interests of their country over that of NATO or anyone else. They directly contributed to this, and then that man killed us all. They told him to kill every last dissenter and communist. There used to be millions of communists in indonesia, local native movements and city workers alike. They killed every last one of them along with their family. The PKI is fucking gone, not because they became unpopular, but because they shot them all. They literally had to close fishing in many areas because the fishermen would only drag up corpses. Rivers would be dammed up by the sheer amount of bodies clogging them.
The US did it, it wouldn't have been possible at all without the US providing millions in funds to the coup efforts, for the guns and arms they supplied. They used agents to sabotage the government and military.
Genocide has never been an exception, for the US, it is the rule. These are grassroots movements the world over fighting for freedom and the US has been making sure to kill and break every single one.
We call it the Great Satan, and we aren't kidding when we say it.
Sankara, Allende, Arbenz, the Spanish republicans, the Greek partisans, millions of Vietnamese, 20% of the population of Korea at least, Turning Libya from one of the most prosperous countries in Africa into a fucking slave state, ruining Iraq (who used to be the most progressive and prosperous countries in the middle east), Nasser in Egypt, the United Arab Republic, they killed fucking Malcolm X, and that's just a fucking taste. I'm not even joking, the crimes of the US against communists (real and not) and true freedom, are too numerous to mention without wasting several thousand pages.
So excuse us for taking a small bit of glee in watching, as someone finally takes direct action against the US and its NATO allies. As someone on a similar power fights the US directly for the first time since 1991. As we watch their war machines explode on the field. As we watch the colonies liberate themselves. As we watch the Empire die from their blunders. We will see every downed plane as glorious vengeance. Every billion dollars wasted in futility as a bit of sooth to the losses of 91. Every Wunderwaffen tank be shredded, instead of rolling over weaker powers like in Iraq and Afghanistan. The last cries of the soviets, while killing itself, also strikes the face of the American beast. The last cries of Marxism Leninism's greatest project draining the Empire and its vassal. The final strike to begin the collapse was stricken by the consequences of its own actions. China and Russia, corpses of our past, are using our weapons to finally kill it. Our only regret is that the Soviet Union itself isn't killing the USA and Europe.
My nation of Hawaii was stolen from the Hawaiian natives, and now they are supposed to be grateful. To wait. To expect for you to deign to give them back the home you stole. TO WAIT FOR THEIR RIGHTS!
EVERY DAY I SEE AMERICANS PILLAGE THIS LAND! BURN THIS LAND! POISON THIS LAND! Its not even mine, but that doesn't lessen my hatred.
What Russia and China have done is pennies next to the crimes of America. Especially to communists. Now we may vary on Russia, and we may debate the war, but we are united on this: The day we side with America will never happen, ever. America and the Nazis are the eternal enemies of the Communists. We will never side with Ukraine, because we know America is not fighting for good. Because America is interested in using blood to whet the wheels of its imperial machine. If there is no one who hates America on this earth, it means we are no longer on this earth.
I will never hate any nation more than the USA, it is almost impossible. I hate it so much that I stopped being suicidal because I had to see it die. One day my fear of death will be overshadowed by my hatred of America. My ideology can be described as anti American and anti fascism in its entirety. If it hates American and fascism, I am immediately sympathetic. If it turns its guns on America or its vassals, I am immediately sympathetic. I sided with communism because that is what America fears most. I side with communism because that is what fascism fears most. America is the primary source of fascism, it is the fortress of capitalism. I believe in it for more than that now, but it is still a core of my being.
Russia is an enemy, one that I will rejoice to see fall to a socialist revolution. I seethe every time I see it remembering the world we lost. I hope for the death of every single leader in office. I hope or the purge of the traitors in the KPRF. I see it and wish for a rebirth of a nation I know will never come back. I have no allegiance to it
But America...
I don't want it to fucking exist. In any form.
You are peddling for sympathy you will not find, I hate everything in America, everything about it, with every bit of blood and bone in my body.
And yet I don't begrudge you for it, I fully understand how the system in which we live engenders this type of deranged rebellion. But still, I regret to inform you that even if the US were to cease to exist tomorrow, the global problems that are the true source of your anger would simply be exacerbated.
comrade, the socialist revolution solves the main problems of capitalism. Socialism is our main goal to transit towards communism.
The death of the United states would allow a complete freedom of the communist ideals. The propaganda centre and fortress of capitalism would die, and socialist movements would pop up all over the globe. With the main idiots in the west broken, or themselves socialist, then we can start fixing all these issues. Climate change, colonialism, the lot of it. Of course I realize it won't be perfect, but it will undoubtedly be better.
I wish I still believed that. But it requires a great deal of faith, and it's a bit cavalier to destabilize all of human civilization without hard evidence that communism will actually work.
Enlightenment thinkers espoused a similar level of faith in the transformative power of free trade and democracy, as opposed to mercantilism and monarchy. It was indeed a transformative power, but it arguably took us even further away from our ideal society.
Everybody and their mother knows capitalism is flawed, but the viability of communism is still very much an open question. I personally think it's worth a shot, but having blind faith that it will definitely be better is a bridge too far for me. As soul crushing as capitalism is, we also tend to take for granted all the problems it does do a good job solving, because we have never experienced any other social system.
The US backed the coup against democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014 which actually caused most of this mess. Plus you know, destroying the USSR through 70 years of aggression and hostility known as the Cold War. If the USSR was never destroyed, the world and Ukraine would both be far better off today.
Morality is subjective and based on one's surroundings and differs not only from culture to culture but by the individual. It's a really piss poor way ti analyze mass movements or geopolitics
we can ask whether the actions of a nation are moral.
Well, if we have to speak this way, Russia’s position is the more defensible position. I sympathize for the people of Ukraine and want the war over.
The best thing the Ukrainian government could do is make peace and let the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics join Russia, since that’s what its citizens want.
If you think that’s unacceptable, then the US should return Texas to Mexico before it has a right to speak on this.
You can just Google shit dude. Do the bare minimum some time. It's embarrassing how confident you fucking dorks act given how catastrophically ignorant and helpless you are at the same time.
I develop my entire worldview through adversarial conversations on the internet. If you don't spoon feed me sources for even the most well established facts my ego will starve and I'll say something bigoted but pretend you're the asshole for taking offense. Yes I'm a liberal, how'd you know?
The comment was very ambiguous, and I had a feeling they had something in particular in mind. If they showed the one they were thinking about, we could better talk about the same thing.
"Contras" is not ambiguous. That would be like calling the "Mujahideen" ambiguous. It's a real group with a name and historical record, and the US government funded them because they were fighting eViL GoMmUniSm.
Oh yeah, the US funded and armed the Mujahideen (aka precursors of the Taliban) too, by the way. Same story different name/continent.
It does if the other side is undoubtedly the bad guys.
You seem to be viewing this like its sports, I don't fucking care about who you think are "undoubtably" bad guys, as far as I'm concerned America is worse. It's getting people killed, for lines on a map, and you guys brought this on.
Why is it the US's fault that Russia decided that Ukraine should be theirs? Does Russia have a moral obligation to not be relegated to a regional power?
You know that Ukrainian cities have been getting shelled for like 8 years now, it's just that now it's not only the Ukranian government doing it.
We are taking about good and bad, and whether it was bad or good that Russia invaded. Those are moral questions. So yes, we can ask whether the actions of a nation are moral.
No we are not. You are talking about good and bad because that's the level you engage with politics.
I say it's asenine to attribute moral character to the citizens of a nation of millions unless you're really prepared to have your glass house targetted.
Are Americans guilty of its crimes? Should people consider Americans immoral because of all the genocides, slavery, and ongoing mass incarcerations?
Are you incapable of comparing things? Yes the US has problems. I and others are working to fix them. That doesn't mean morality is worseless.
lol all I see is a decent into fascism, you seem to be doing a shit job
Hmm, I see abandoning morality as bad. Actually, whataboutism to just call everyone bad is a common tactic used by neo Nazis to say Germany wasn't that bad.
you also repeatedly handwave US war crimes further in the comments, morality is nothing to you
I'm trying to acknowledge that they are terrible while still staying on topic. What would you rather me do? Not condemn Russia because the US has done totally unrelated bad things? That doesn't make any sense.
this is literally a post about USA bad, where you are harping "russia bad" out of nowhere. Russia is not the point of the post in any way. You are the one off topic.
Also the US is related to almost every conflict on earth since the creation of the CIA, and are definitely ones doing bad shit in ukraine.
I said the US was good for helping Ukraine against Russia. People responded with 'actualy Russia good,' so I responded to them. I don't disagree with the post that the US has done bad things. I disagree with the comments that the US can has and will always do the morally worst thing possible, so much so that all other countries look great by comparison.
Hexbear is agreeing on one thing: the war in ukraine is bad, and america is directly contributing to the starting and continuation of the conflict. They've been funding Nazi movements in ukraine since literally right after the end of ww2. The US used ukraine to poke the bear on purpose, it didn't think russia would react, and it did. Now all the empires are at war.
but you have crossed the fucking line
how dare you compare the two. Russia is no fucking friend, but you dare compare it to the USA? The American Empire? You ask us to side with them on anything?
America has done the most morally despicable things at almost every opportunity. They tried to starve cuba by dropping the swine flu on them. They pardoned the japanese and german fascist government officials to establish puppet states to use agianst the soviets. They fucking used officials and data from Unit 731 (a division so evil it will make you almost throw up just reading it) to kill people in vietnam! You think they came up with all their chemical warfare out of nowhere? America has killed countless african anti-colonial movements and chosen to side with the apartheid regimes of South Africa and Israel at every opportunity. They helped their buddy france to maintain their colonial hegemony over the african people, and then literally tried to assassinate the prime minister of France when he didn't want to kill as many people. They literally hired a Nazi concentration camp leader called "the butcher" to become a leader in NASA! THE BUTCHER! They hired a man named "hitler's favorite commmando" who took part in a mission to rescue mussolini at one point. HE WAS THE NAZI SOLDIER! He was hired by the CIA to be deployed on anti communist hit squads.
They've couped every nation in south America at least once, and most of the ones in central America. The leaders were always ones that were trying to do internal buildup programs, did basic workers rights protections, or respected democratic process and let communists in government if they were voted in. Fidel and the sandinistas are the only ones to have survived. Not for lack of trying, the CIA tried to kill Fidel 600 times over the course of his life. Of those in the majority they did get, did they replace those leaders with law abiding, human rights loving individuals? Nope Fascist military juntas and criminal syndicate leaders. They would carry out reigns of terror that would KILL MILLIONS! OF COMMUNISTS! Of anyone adjacent to them! Friends, colleges, friends of friends, it didn't matter! Millions dead!
Indonesia they supported a fascist junta leader to lead a hostile takeover of moderate Indonesia. Because they dared to have communists in government, to have a progressive government, to side with the interests of their country over that of NATO or anyone else. They directly contributed to this, and then that man killed us all. They told him to kill every last dissenter and communist. There used to be millions of communists in indonesia, local native movements and city workers alike. They killed every last one of them along with their family. The PKI is fucking gone, not because they became unpopular, but because they shot them all. They literally had to close fishing in many areas because the fishermen would only drag up corpses. Rivers would be dammed up by the sheer amount of bodies clogging them.
The US did it, it wouldn't have been possible at all without the US providing millions in funds to the coup efforts, for the guns and arms they supplied. They used agents to sabotage the government and military.
Genocide has never been an exception, for the US, it is the rule. These are grassroots movements the world over fighting for freedom and the US has been making sure to kill and break every single one.
We call it the Great Satan, and we aren't kidding when we say it.
Sankara, Allende, Arbenz, the Spanish republicans, the Greek partisans, millions of Vietnamese, 20% of the population of Korea at least, Turning Libya from one of the most prosperous countries in Africa into a fucking slave state, ruining Iraq (who used to be the most progressive and prosperous countries in the middle east), Nasser in Egypt, the United Arab Republic, they killed fucking Malcolm X, and that's just a fucking taste. I'm not even joking, the crimes of the US against communists (real and not) and true freedom, are too numerous to mention without wasting several thousand pages.
So excuse us for taking a small bit of glee in watching, as someone finally takes direct action against the US and its NATO allies. As someone on a similar power fights the US directly for the first time since 1991. As we watch their war machines explode on the field. As we watch the colonies liberate themselves. As we watch the Empire die from their blunders. We will see every downed plane as glorious vengeance. Every billion dollars wasted in futility as a bit of sooth to the losses of 91. Every Wunderwaffen tank be shredded, instead of rolling over weaker powers like in Iraq and Afghanistan. The last cries of the soviets, while killing itself, also strikes the face of the American beast. The last cries of Marxism Leninism's greatest project draining the Empire and its vassal. The final strike to begin the collapse was stricken by the consequences of its own actions. China and Russia, corpses of our past, are using our weapons to finally kill it. Our only regret is that the Soviet Union itself isn't killing the USA and Europe.
My nation of Hawaii was stolen from the Hawaiian natives, and now they are supposed to be grateful. To wait. To expect for you to deign to give them back the home you stole. TO WAIT FOR THEIR RIGHTS!
EVERY DAY I SEE AMERICANS PILLAGE THIS LAND! BURN THIS LAND! POISON THIS LAND! Its not even mine, but that doesn't lessen my hatred.
What Russia and China have done is pennies next to the crimes of America. Especially to communists. Now we may vary on Russia, and we may debate the war, but we are united on this: The day we side with America will never happen, ever. America and the Nazis are the eternal enemies of the Communists. We will never side with Ukraine, because we know America is not fighting for good. Because America is interested in using blood to whet the wheels of its imperial machine. If there is no one who hates America on this earth, it means we are no longer on this earth.
I will never hate any nation more than the USA, it is almost impossible. I hate it so much that I stopped being suicidal because I had to see it die. One day my fear of death will be overshadowed by my hatred of America. My ideology can be described as anti American and anti fascism in its entirety. If it hates American and fascism, I am immediately sympathetic. If it turns its guns on America or its vassals, I am immediately sympathetic. I sided with communism because that is what America fears most. I side with communism because that is what fascism fears most. America is the primary source of fascism, it is the fortress of capitalism. I believe in it for more than that now, but it is still a core of my being.
Russia is an enemy, one that I will rejoice to see fall to a socialist revolution. I seethe every time I see it remembering the world we lost. I hope for the death of every single leader in office. I hope or the purge of the traitors in the KPRF. I see it and wish for a rebirth of a nation I know will never come back. I have no allegiance to it
But America...
I don't want it to fucking exist. In any form.
You are peddling for sympathy you will not find, I hate everything in America, everything about it, with every bit of blood and bone in my body.
Could you tell I was listening to Der Heimliche Aufmarsch (Funny I can spell that) while writing this?
I starred it it was that good. You are now forbidden from deleting your account please thanks
I was literally thinking of it while reading. lol
Now tell us how you really feel 🤣
But in all seriousness, this is an unhinged rant.
And yet I don't begrudge you for it, I fully understand how the system in which we live engenders this type of deranged rebellion. But still, I regret to inform you that even if the US were to cease to exist tomorrow, the global problems that are the true source of your anger would simply be exacerbated.
white child says what?
comrade, the socialist revolution solves the main problems of capitalism. Socialism is our main goal to transit towards communism.
The death of the United states would allow a complete freedom of the communist ideals. The propaganda centre and fortress of capitalism would die, and socialist movements would pop up all over the globe. With the main idiots in the west broken, or themselves socialist, then we can start fixing all these issues. Climate change, colonialism, the lot of it. Of course I realize it won't be perfect, but it will undoubtedly be better.
tldr: read marx, before its too late
I wish I still believed that. But it requires a great deal of faith, and it's a bit cavalier to destabilize all of human civilization without hard evidence that communism will actually work.
Enlightenment thinkers espoused a similar level of faith in the transformative power of free trade and democracy, as opposed to mercantilism and monarchy. It was indeed a transformative power, but it arguably took us even further away from our ideal society.
Everybody and their mother knows capitalism is flawed, but the viability of communism is still very much an open question. I personally think it's worth a shot, but having blind faith that it will definitely be better is a bridge too far for me. As soul crushing as capitalism is, we also tend to take for granted all the problems it does do a good job solving, because we have never experienced any other social system.
In all seriousness, everything she said is true, fuckface
Don't shoot the messenger
The US backed the coup against democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014 which actually caused most of this mess. Plus you know, destroying the USSR through 70 years of aggression and hostility known as the Cold War. If the USSR was never destroyed, the world and Ukraine would both be far better off today.
Are you able to say "Russia was good for helping the Taliban against America"? I want to see if you're arguing in good faith or not.
Morality is subjective and based on one's surroundings and differs not only from culture to culture but by the individual. It's a really piss poor way ti analyze mass movements or geopolitics
Applying a moral judgement to millions of people based on the actions of their government is silly.
If you insist otherwise I'm going to start applying the same standard to you for the crimes of the ameri-anglo empire.
Well, if we have to speak this way, Russia’s position is the more defensible position. I sympathize for the people of Ukraine and want the war over.
The best thing the Ukrainian government could do is make peace and let the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics join Russia, since that’s what its citizens want.
If you think that’s unacceptable, then the US should return Texas to Mexico before it has a right to speak on this.
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brb relaunching the contras
Define please? What do you mean?
referencing one of many far right terrorist organizations propped up entirely by the USA
Could you link something? I've never heard of them.
https://oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/special/9712/appa.htm US gov investigation excerpts
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html in depth university papers
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP90-00806R000201090033-3.pdf leaked CIA docs
https://www.britannica.com/topic/contra-Nicaraguan-counterrevolutionary lazy brittanica article but read it
Coca cola death squads? Operation Gladio? Operation Paperclip? Pinochet? All exist only with US subversion
Thanks btw
fuck, you are so politically illiterate. spend more time reading and less time opening your mouth
We know
Please?
You can just Google shit dude. Do the bare minimum some time. It's embarrassing how confident you fucking dorks act given how catastrophically ignorant and helpless you are at the same time.
but how could I inconvenience others if I do the work myself?
I develop my entire worldview through adversarial conversations on the internet. If you don't spoon feed me sources for even the most well established facts my ego will starve and I'll say something bigoted but pretend you're the asshole for taking offense. Yes I'm a liberal, how'd you know?
The comment was very ambiguous, and I had a feeling they had something in particular in mind. If they showed the one they were thinking about, we could better talk about the same thing.
The Iran-Contra affair is an infamous part of American history. It's not exactly a hard to find thing.
oh shit I linked the things about the contra terrorists in Nicaragua
deleted by creator
"Contras" is not ambiguous. That would be like calling the "Mujahideen" ambiguous. It's a real group with a name and historical record, and the US government funded them because they were fighting eViL GoMmUniSm.
Oh yeah, the US funded and armed the Mujahideen (aka precursors of the Taliban) too, by the way. Same story different name/continent.