Interstate Highways and similar systems are "successful" socialism, as far as I understand socialism, because they are a piece of tax-funded infrastructure that has outlasted and avoided issues that have proven inherent to soviet-style, communist nation-states.
Interstate Highways and similar systems are "successful" socialism, as far as I understand socialism
I must be blunt here: socialism is not about taxation. At all. Socialist communes don't even require taxes or money to exist.
Socialism is about workers' relationship with work.
As far as I've ever been aware, socialism is the use of tax dollars to provide goods or services beyond simply the military protection provided by feudal governments.
I do use a monarch's definition of democracy. Or rather, I use the worst things a type of government has done to define whether it meets its ideals. Communism disappeared people who criticized the leadership, democracy is a witch trial on a national scale, and monarchy is an asshole who has a private army running a protection racket.
Yeah, that's definitely a usage of the word socialism I have heard, but it is not generally a definition most socialists or socialist parties would use and it has some issues in my opinion.
This is such a broad definition of socialism as to make it almost meaningless, as this definition fits every nation on earth today and most through history. ancient Rome used public money to fund public roads, subsidized grain for the poor, public entertainment and land grants for veterans, public aqueducts, and other public programs, yet this was 2000 years before the concept of socialism was really invented and I don't think anyone is holding up ancient Rome as an example of a socialist society.
I would define socialism by two characteristics. One is control over the political economy by the proletariat (workers), as opposed to the bourgeoisie (capitalists/financiers/business owners). In a bourgeois run capitalist state, there is still publicly funded services, but they generally set up to benefit privately run industry (public highways, government subsidized research, police) or they are concessions won by the proletariat through class struggle (universal healthcare, social welfare programs).
The second characteristic is economic organization around common need, rather than around the pursuit of profits. This would require taking the means off production (factories, businesses, utilities, etc) out of the hands of the bourgeoisie.
socialism can be understood as the transitional state between a capitalist mode of production and a communist one. the US government is a 100% certified capitalist state, any project they have undertaken has nothing to do with socialism
Sorry mate, socialism isn't that. Here's a good place to start learning about what socialism is. check out Richard Wolff, a economics professor, on YouTube for some interesting lecturers about how it works in reality if you want to go a bit further.
As far as I've ever been aware, socialism is the use of tax dollars to provide goods or services
I've seen others comment but I'll add my own two cents. You don't know what socialism is, and that's not a criticism of you, it's just a fact.
What you're describing is social democracy wherein governments allow a capitalist relationship to the means of production to exist while providing social programs and investing. Socialism and Capitalism are about the worker's relationship to the means of production. Under capitalism Capitalists take money generated by worker's surplus labor as profits and use these profits to create a government that will protect their power to continue stealing from their workers. Under socialism profits are not held privately but publicly, by worker's or socialist governments that exist to redistribute the ill gotten wealth of the Capitalists.
It's not about how many programs a government does or the taxes it collects, it's about the workers relations to the means of production. The problem with social democracy, which Lenin pointed out over a hundred years ago in State and Revolution, is that by letting Capitalists exist they will not allow workers to take away their wealth and power democratically, they will use fascism to secure their wealth. Another problem is that these programs cannot exist for long because Capitalists are parasites and will do everything they can to privatize them and milk as much profit out of them as possible, for examples of this look at nearly every government program that exists in Europe and point to me one that works better now than it did 30 years ago before Capitalists had time to take cuts out of it, it's a really big problem typically with healthcare programs in these countries.
Even by you'd definition of "socialism" being public infrastructure spending, how is the US highway system more successful than the Chinese High Speed Rail system?
That might be why everyone's probably assuming I'm right-wing. I mentioned it (the highway system) with its criticisms because, while successful at remaining operational, the Chinese high speed rail system is, by virtue of being a rail system, much more efficient. It would be better if there were low-speed rail connections too, but as it is the Chinese high speed rail system is indeed a successful socialist(?)/socially-funded(?) intercity transit system. OIf course, the Chinese rail system has flaws like lines that lose billions of tax dollars every year (or rather the important part is that this says there aren't enough riders on those routes), but the Interstates were often built through areas in the middle of nowhere b ecause it made construction companies a shitload of money.
In short, you're right to mention the chinese rail, "succesful" in my eyes also meant longevity along with a national scale and the highways happen to be older.
Lines losing money is implying that the point of the lines is to make money. That is so staggeringly uninformed and capitalist minded it blows me away.
I will shock you by informing you most fish are bad at flying.
The problem isn't the money. Its that the money coming from fares doesn't cover the track maintenance. Besides, my point is not the cost because you're right on that part, but rather that...
The cost is probably due to lower ridership than needed to make the line useful rather than wasteful.
High speed rail lines are bad at low density nations/regions. So, like a fish in the air versus a panda in the air, neither rail lines nor highways actually function well in that situation, though highways are pretty crappy no matter what. The best solution is actually rural mechanization/electrification and an increase in urbanization, which - despite international impressions - has barely been done in China in favor of keeping the remaining impoverished people poor.
Believe me, I'm aware the money isn't the point, I'm saying that if you institute a government, even a communist one, you shouldn't completely ignore the currency someone has on hand or spends anymore than you should rely solely on the currency someone has or spends as the primary or only measure of their importance.
A penny versus a dollar should not define the people carrying them, but the person can usually influence the world using them, and whether you're a selfish or benevolent bureaucrat, the ability to know what kind of influence a person is likely to exert is the entire reason we are having to discuss politics with a degree of edge in the first place; Our leadership has access to that information and STILL aren't using it to fix things instead of filling their pockets, therefore each of us is unsatisfied. I think everyone who's posed in this thread can at least agree on that, considering this is Lemmy.
My brother in Christ, China has urbanized faster than any society in human history. They build entire cities and then move people in once they’re finished.
The people pay to maintain the rails through taxes, failing to “recoup the maintenance” just means the lines are subsidized.
By that logic if they charged no fee to use them, it would be infinitely wasteful…
Which, by the way, have you noticed most highways are free to use? Does that not make them money losers?
So are parks, and sidewalks.
I’ve never seen them criticized as wasteful. The point is not to make money with them.
but as it is the Chinese high speed rail system is indeed a successful socialist(?)/socially-funded(?) intercity transit system.
It's funny to call America's highways socialist and then hedge your phrasing against China's rail system.
More genuinely, would you like me to go through the Marxian conception of socialism in a non-combative way? It looks like you're doing your best but just aren't familiar with the topic.
"far as I understand socialism"
We got a lot to unpack here.
Youbtalked about how all the post soviet states crumbled into disrepair. They are cpaitlaist. That is cpaitlaism. When they were not capitalist things got better. When they were cpaitlaist. Things got worse. This is basic stuff here.
Ever seen that chart of standard of living for the top 10% and bottom 40% of wealth in Russia since 1880?
I don't remember where it was but I'll explain.
1880 to the Soviet Union were completely unfair. 1990 to present was and is completely unfair. I am not going to argue in favor of capitalism because to capitalism I, specificly me as a person, am unprofitable. I would be killed in a cyberpunk dystopia.
During the Soviet Union, the standards of living were roughly equal, but dropped 66% below the standards of living the 10% experienced before and after.
According to a calculation, to reach a state of being secure from the climate crisis and have equal wealth, we would need to revert to the standard of living of 1960s America technologically.
I don't like capitalism or hate socialism. I hate that the universe works in such a way that my lifestyle - no car, living with my parents, and writing on a modern computer with fiber internet access for a living, with no possessions individually worth more than $5000 and a net worth of basically zero - is not fair under capitalism AND impossible under the kind of world YOU want to live in.
You want to live in a world where my only niche in life is too luxurious for everyone else? Fuck you, I'll just commit suicide.
There are lies, and then there are statistics, and trying to do living standard calculations about this shit with a 10% cutoff that's including the feudal warlords who owned literally everything and were spending fuckoff amounts of money on fucking glass eggs is just dancing around the actual point here.
They went from a feudal partially industrialized backwater to space in the span of ~30 years, with a catastrophic war right in the middle. They operated for decades under siege from the rest of the world outside their relatively small and poor sphere.
I don't like capitalism or hate socialism. I hate that the universe works in such a way that my lifestyle - no car, living with my parents, and writing on a modern computer with fiber internet access for a living, with no possessions individually worth more than $5000 and a net worth of basically zero - is not fair under capitalism AND impossible under the kind of world YOU want to live in.
You want to live in a world where my only niche in life is too luxurious for everyone else? Fuck you, I'll just commit suicide.
Socialism is when no electronic treats? those devices you're so protective of are almost definitely made in China or nearby already, what do you think the anti-China warmongering is going to result in if not a disruption of your treats?
your life sounds pretty miserable under capitalism, wild how we have a system which prioritizes the right of property owners to extract rents from people in perpetuity.
My life is miserable because I have a disability that means I have to rely on others and was literally been screwed out of a happy childhood by my own government from 2001-2002. I can barely trust my government to give me enough to live on (~$20,000 CAD a year), and full-bodied lasseiz-faire capitalism would view me as human vermin, while all attempts at communism has proven to be endemically-afflicted with an authoritarian existence that would have me exterminated as "useless".
I'm not defending capitalism. I'm calling reality hell and calling each and every one of you my jailors for not giving a fuck how MY LIFE means NOTHING to you.
I never called any of YOU worthless or lazy or genetically substandard. You all seem to have no thought towards what happens to the people who will die when you revolt because they are TERMINALLY DEPENDENT on the status quo, nor do you care that history has shown over and over and FUCKING over that regardless of what type of government or economy you choose, revolutions ALWAYS fail.
I'm trying to say, this isn't about a fucking political compass to me, and I don't have a position on that compass. This is about how EVERYONE has fucking rejected me except my closest family and friends, and now I hate all of you equally regardless of your position because you insist I pick a goddamn side when no matter who wins, I DIE. So why SHOULDN'T I say that capitalism is evil, and communism is evil, and socialism is evil, and anarchy and monarchy and fascism and everything else we've EVER used to structure a society is EVIL, because IT DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT COLLATERAL DAMAGE.
You want a fucking flame war? How about I fucking dox you all and steal a car to drive haphazardly to all of your houses and BURN THEM TO THE FUCKING GROUND?! No, I'm not serious, but THAT is what your political opinions are threatening to do to my life; take the few things that matter to me away and then leave me to die, or hunt me down and have me tortured until I break or die from the stress.
Fuck you. I own a computer, I have a bedroom, I play video games and read ebooks. That's all that I can afford, and you think I should give up everything except the bedroom. How about all of you give up your cars, transit passes, televisions, motorhomes, ATVs, boats, private schools, swimming pools, summer camps, vacations to ANYWHERE, IoT devices, smartphones, model train sets, gym memberships, single family homes, college educations, going out to restaurants at your own expense, collections of trading cards or china plates or beanie babies, keeping pets, having children, working a job that you like, working a job you are psychologically capable of doing, AND never owning anything expensive that you just think looks neat? Because I have none of those other things, and you expect me to give up my computer for your own benefit as much as the wealthy assholes do.
I'm trying to say, this isn't about a fucking political compass to me, and I don't have a position on that compass.
The compass shit is bullshit anyways
revolutions ALWAYS fail.
They have succeeded in the past, and it was often disabled people fighting the hardest for socialist revolution- because the status quo was killing them. Helen keller was a socialist.
My life is miserable because I have a disability that means I have to rely on others and was literally been screwed out of a happy childhood by my own government from 2001-2002. I can barely trust my government to give me enough to live on (~$20,000 CAD a year), and full-bodied lasseiz-faire capitalism would view me as human vermin, while all attempts at communism has proven to be endemically-afflicted with an authoritarian existence that would have me exterminated as "useless".
You are in full-bodied capitalism, it's just that it's the people outside your national borders who are the 'human vermin' getting exterminated by your countries military, along with its allies. You get some meager existence in the meantime and lots of treats to enjoy.
You seem pretty worked up about this, but don't seem to have an understanding of what socialists even want. You also don't seem interested in learning.
I work with people who are unhoused living on the streets with far less toys than you have, I've know many people that didn't make it through the last few years. You can eat my shit and hair.
2, tell me if the USA is going to last another 20 years because I doubt it. Now tell me if your fucking revolution's results will still be around in 248 years. ALL political systems are doomed to fail, so LEAVE MY LIFE THE FUCK ALONE.
3, trying to guilt me into giving up what little I do have through whataboutism makes you look like an asshole.
You are in full-bodied capitalism, it's just that it's the people outside your national borders who are the 'human vermin' getting exterminated by your countries military, along with its allies.
I never said you murdered anyone, you are just on the side of the soul harvester where the goodies pop out
while all attempts at communism has proven to be endemically-afflicted with an authoritarian existence that would have me exterminated as "useless".
This is completely false. Socialist states aren't the ones doing eugenics and killing the disabled. That's fascist and liberal states doing it (I'm sure you see how MAiD is sinister). Socialist states, while not always prioritizing the issue of disability, have sought to help the disabled so that they can help in the ways they can rather than waste away in a hovel as they were left to in feudal society.
What the fuck, you completely misread that.
Interstate Highways and similar systems are "successful" socialism, as far as I understand socialism, because they are a piece of tax-funded infrastructure that has outlasted and avoided issues that have proven inherent to soviet-style, communist nation-states.
I must be blunt here: socialism is not about taxation. At all. Socialist communes don't even require taxes or money to exist. Socialism is about workers' relationship with work.
You don't understand socialism then, it's not "when the government does something"
As far as I've ever been aware, socialism is the use of tax dollars to provide goods or services beyond simply the military protection provided by feudal governments.
Would you use a monarch’s definition of democracy to define democracy?
Do you think that definition would be fair or even accurate?
Because you are using a capitalist definition of socialism, which is just as unfair and inaccurate.
I do use a monarch's definition of democracy. Or rather, I use the worst things a type of government has done to define whether it meets its ideals. Communism disappeared people who criticized the leadership, democracy is a witch trial on a national scale, and monarchy is an asshole who has a private army running a protection racket.
Okay, you're incorrect
Yeah, that's definitely a usage of the word socialism I have heard, but it is not generally a definition most socialists or socialist parties would use and it has some issues in my opinion.
This is such a broad definition of socialism as to make it almost meaningless, as this definition fits every nation on earth today and most through history. ancient Rome used public money to fund public roads, subsidized grain for the poor, public entertainment and land grants for veterans, public aqueducts, and other public programs, yet this was 2000 years before the concept of socialism was really invented and I don't think anyone is holding up ancient Rome as an example of a socialist society.
I would define socialism by two characteristics. One is control over the political economy by the proletariat (workers), as opposed to the bourgeoisie (capitalists/financiers/business owners). In a bourgeois run capitalist state, there is still publicly funded services, but they generally set up to benefit privately run industry (public highways, government subsidized research, police) or they are concessions won by the proletariat through class struggle (universal healthcare, social welfare programs).
The second characteristic is economic organization around common need, rather than around the pursuit of profits. This would require taking the means off production (factories, businesses, utilities, etc) out of the hands of the bourgeoisie.
socialism can be understood as the transitional state between a capitalist mode of production and a communist one. the US government is a 100% certified capitalist state, any project they have undertaken has nothing to do with socialism
Sorry mate, socialism isn't that. Here's a good place to start learning about what socialism is. check out Richard Wolff, a economics professor, on YouTube for some interesting lecturers about how it works in reality if you want to go a bit further.
I've seen others comment but I'll add my own two cents. You don't know what socialism is, and that's not a criticism of you, it's just a fact.
What you're describing is social democracy wherein governments allow a capitalist relationship to the means of production to exist while providing social programs and investing. Socialism and Capitalism are about the worker's relationship to the means of production. Under capitalism Capitalists take money generated by worker's surplus labor as profits and use these profits to create a government that will protect their power to continue stealing from their workers. Under socialism profits are not held privately but publicly, by worker's or socialist governments that exist to redistribute the ill gotten wealth of the Capitalists.
It's not about how many programs a government does or the taxes it collects, it's about the workers relations to the means of production. The problem with social democracy, which Lenin pointed out over a hundred years ago in State and Revolution, is that by letting Capitalists exist they will not allow workers to take away their wealth and power democratically, they will use fascism to secure their wealth. Another problem is that these programs cannot exist for long because Capitalists are parasites and will do everything they can to privatize them and milk as much profit out of them as possible, for examples of this look at nearly every government program that exists in Europe and point to me one that works better now than it did 30 years ago before Capitalists had time to take cuts out of it, it's a really big problem typically with healthcare programs in these countries.
Even by you'd definition of "socialism" being public infrastructure spending, how is the US highway system more successful than the Chinese High Speed Rail system?
That might be why everyone's probably assuming I'm right-wing. I mentioned it (the highway system) with its criticisms because, while successful at remaining operational, the Chinese high speed rail system is, by virtue of being a rail system, much more efficient. It would be better if there were low-speed rail connections too, but as it is the Chinese high speed rail system is indeed a successful socialist(?)/socially-funded(?) intercity transit system. OIf course, the Chinese rail system has flaws like lines that lose billions of tax dollars every year (or rather the important part is that this says there aren't enough riders on those routes), but the Interstates were often built through areas in the middle of nowhere b ecause it made construction companies a shitload of money.
In short, you're right to mention the chinese rail, "succesful" in my eyes also meant longevity along with a national scale and the highways happen to be older.
Lines losing money is implying that the point of the lines is to make money. That is so staggeringly uninformed and capitalist minded it blows me away.
I will shock you by informing you most fish are bad at flying.
Turns out, that’s not what they were made for.
The problem isn't the money. Its that the money coming from fares doesn't cover the track maintenance. Besides, my point is not the cost because you're right on that part, but rather that...
Believe me, I'm aware the money isn't the point, I'm saying that if you institute a government, even a communist one, you shouldn't completely ignore the currency someone has on hand or spends anymore than you should rely solely on the currency someone has or spends as the primary or only measure of their importance.
A penny versus a dollar should not define the people carrying them, but the person can usually influence the world using them, and whether you're a selfish or benevolent bureaucrat, the ability to know what kind of influence a person is likely to exert is the entire reason we are having to discuss politics with a degree of edge in the first place; Our leadership has access to that information and STILL aren't using it to fix things instead of filling their pockets, therefore each of us is unsatisfied. I think everyone who's posed in this thread can at least agree on that, considering this is Lemmy.
My brother in Christ, China has urbanized faster than any society in human history. They build entire cities and then move people in once they’re finished.
The people pay to maintain the rails through taxes, failing to “recoup the maintenance” just means the lines are subsidized.
By that logic if they charged no fee to use them, it would be infinitely wasteful…
Which, by the way, have you noticed most highways are free to use? Does that not make them money losers?
So are parks, and sidewalks.
I’ve never seen them criticized as wasteful. The point is not to make money with them.
It's funny to call America's highways socialist and then hedge your phrasing against China's rail system.
More genuinely, would you like me to go through the Marxian conception of socialism in a non-combative way? It looks like you're doing your best but just aren't familiar with the topic.
"far as I understand socialism" We got a lot to unpack here.
Youbtalked about how all the post soviet states crumbled into disrepair. They are cpaitlaist. That is cpaitlaism. When they were not capitalist things got better. When they were cpaitlaist. Things got worse. This is basic stuff here.
Not even just "crumbled". They were crumbled
Ever seen that chart of standard of living for the top 10% and bottom 40% of wealth in Russia since 1880?
I don't remember where it was but I'll explain.
1880 to the Soviet Union were completely unfair. 1990 to present was and is completely unfair. I am not going to argue in favor of capitalism because to capitalism I, specificly me as a person, am unprofitable. I would be killed in a cyberpunk dystopia.
During the Soviet Union, the standards of living were roughly equal, but dropped 66% below the standards of living the 10% experienced before and after.
According to a calculation, to reach a state of being secure from the climate crisis and have equal wealth, we would need to revert to the standard of living of 1960s America technologically.
I don't like capitalism or hate socialism. I hate that the universe works in such a way that my lifestyle - no car, living with my parents, and writing on a modern computer with fiber internet access for a living, with no possessions individually worth more than $5000 and a net worth of basically zero - is not fair under capitalism AND impossible under the kind of world YOU want to live in.
You want to live in a world where my only niche in life is too luxurious for everyone else? Fuck you, I'll just commit suicide.
There are lies, and then there are statistics, and trying to do living standard calculations about this shit with a 10% cutoff that's including the feudal warlords who owned literally everything and were spending fuckoff amounts of money on fucking glass eggs is just dancing around the actual point here.
They went from a feudal partially industrialized backwater to space in the span of ~30 years, with a catastrophic war right in the middle. They operated for decades under siege from the rest of the world outside their relatively small and poor sphere.
Socialism is when no electronic treats? those devices you're so protective of are almost definitely made in China or nearby already, what do you think the anti-China warmongering is going to result in if not a disruption of your treats?
your life sounds pretty miserable under capitalism, wild how we have a system which prioritizes the right of property owners to extract rents from people in perpetuity.
My life is miserable because I have a disability that means I have to rely on others and was literally been screwed out of a happy childhood by my own government from 2001-2002. I can barely trust my government to give me enough to live on (~$20,000 CAD a year), and full-bodied lasseiz-faire capitalism would view me as human vermin, while all attempts at communism has proven to be endemically-afflicted with an authoritarian existence that would have me exterminated as "useless".
I'm not defending capitalism. I'm calling reality hell and calling each and every one of you my jailors for not giving a fuck how MY LIFE means NOTHING to you.
I never called any of YOU worthless or lazy or genetically substandard. You all seem to have no thought towards what happens to the people who will die when you revolt because they are TERMINALLY DEPENDENT on the status quo, nor do you care that history has shown over and over and FUCKING over that regardless of what type of government or economy you choose, revolutions ALWAYS fail.
I'm trying to say, this isn't about a fucking political compass to me, and I don't have a position on that compass. This is about how EVERYONE has fucking rejected me except my closest family and friends, and now I hate all of you equally regardless of your position because you insist I pick a goddamn side when no matter who wins, I DIE. So why SHOULDN'T I say that capitalism is evil, and communism is evil, and socialism is evil, and anarchy and monarchy and fascism and everything else we've EVER used to structure a society is EVIL, because IT DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT COLLATERAL DAMAGE.
You want a fucking flame war? How about I fucking dox you all and steal a car to drive haphazardly to all of your houses and BURN THEM TO THE FUCKING GROUND?! No, I'm not serious, but THAT is what your political opinions are threatening to do to my life; take the few things that matter to me away and then leave me to die, or hunt me down and have me tortured until I break or die from the stress.
Fuck you. I own a computer, I have a bedroom, I play video games and read ebooks. That's all that I can afford, and you think I should give up everything except the bedroom. How about all of you give up your cars, transit passes, televisions, motorhomes, ATVs, boats, private schools, swimming pools, summer camps, vacations to ANYWHERE, IoT devices, smartphones, model train sets, gym memberships, single family homes, college educations, going out to restaurants at your own expense, collections of trading cards or china plates or beanie babies, keeping pets, having children, working a job that you like, working a job you are psychologically capable of doing, AND never owning anything expensive that you just think looks neat? Because I have none of those other things, and you expect me to give up my computer for your own benefit as much as the wealthy assholes do.
The compass shit is bullshit anyways
They have succeeded in the past, and it was often disabled people fighting the hardest for socialist revolution- because the status quo was killing them. Helen keller was a socialist.
You are in full-bodied capitalism, it's just that it's the people outside your national borders who are the 'human vermin' getting exterminated by your countries military, along with its allies. You get some meager existence in the meantime and lots of treats to enjoy.
You seem pretty worked up about this, but don't seem to have an understanding of what socialists even want. You also don't seem interested in learning.
I work with people who are unhoused living on the streets with far less toys than you have, I've know many people that didn't make it through the last few years. You can eat my shit and hair.
1, I'm not an American.
2, tell me if the USA is going to last another 20 years because I doubt it. Now tell me if your fucking revolution's results will still be around in 248 years. ALL political systems are doomed to fail, so LEAVE MY LIFE THE FUCK ALONE.
3, trying to guilt me into giving up what little I do have through whataboutism makes you look like an asshole.
Last I checked canada was part of the
that has been marauding around the world for the last century murdering brown people
Fuck you piss baby you're literally the one trying to guilt everyone else into not having a revolution because you don't want to lose video games
Removed by mod
You are in full-bodied capitalism, it's just that it's the people outside your national borders who are the 'human vermin' getting exterminated by your countries military, along with its allies.
I never said you murdered anyone, you are just on the side of the soul harvester where the goodies pop out
This is completely false. Socialist states aren't the ones doing eugenics and killing the disabled. That's fascist and liberal states doing it (I'm sure you see how MAiD is sinister). Socialist states, while not always prioritizing the issue of disability, have sought to help the disabled so that they can help in the ways they can rather than waste away in a hovel as they were left to in feudal society.
This is almost as good as when my roommate tried to tell me that the fact that SSI lets you buy sauces to cook with is socialism