Like I'm mostly with you here but you doing this "antiwork" dig is uncomfortable for me because like, there are ableist implications to that that I really don't like. I'm "antiwork" because working as an autistic person has basically already drained me of the will to do any work again. And I'd hope that employment under a modern socialist system would be so fundamentally different that it wouldn't be "work" anymore. The fact that many abled/NT MLs don't seem to have a will to establish such a thing is probably my biggest issue with them. For me to believe that ML socialism would make a world that would like, actually be better for me in a fundamental way, I have to believe that employment under their system wouldn't be anything like it is under capitalism. Because sitting on my ass for three years contributing nothing doesn't make me happy either, but I'm too drained and traumatized by past experiences to go back to work.
socially necessary labor has to be done, & not only complained about. though I agree that work as it's conceived & carried out in present day capacities is beleaguering & tortuous. the key point is what the society values after that socially necessary labor is completed. Marx argues for a reduction of the working day and increases in free time
work must be defeated... which, in typical dialectical fashion, is a telos that actually requires real concerted work to achieve
human existence is itself labor & human beings require material resources & energy inputs & social structure in order mature & reproduce themselves.
disabled people & orphans & all those unable to work must be supported by those who do. nothing can change this
wishing for AI or FALGSC isn't the same as building them
Haven't read up on it, but the fact that Marx himself said that "work" is "alienated labor" seems to play into it. Which basically falls in line with what I was saying about post-capitalist labor shouldn't be work anymore.
so you adhere to and identify with "anti-work" "theory" even though you haven't read it?
and Marx didn't say "work" was "alienated labor", he said that private employment & accumulation of private property lead to that situation unnaturally in capitalism
"In creating a world of objects by his personal activity, in his work upon inorganic nature, man proves himself a conscious species-being, i.e., as a being that treats the species as his own essential being, or that treats itself as a species-being. Admittedly animals also produce. They build themselves nests, dwellings, like the bees, beavers, ants, etc. But an animal only produces what it immediately needs for itself or its young. It produces one-sidedly, whilst man produces universally. It produces only under the dominion of immediate physical need, whilst man produces even when he is free from physical need and only truly produces in freedom therefrom. An animal produces only itself, whilst man reproduces the whole of nature. An animal’s product belongs immediately to its physical body, whilst man freely confronts his product. An animal forms only in accordance with the standard and the need of the species to which it belongs, whilst man knows how to produce in accordance with the standard of every species, and knows how to apply everywhere the inherent standard to the object. Man therefore also forms objects in accordance with the laws of beauty.
It is just in his work upon the objective world, therefore, that man really proves himself to be a species-being. This production is his active species-life. Through this production, nature appears as his work and his reality. The object of labor is, therefore, the objectification of man’s species-life: for he duplicates himself not only, as in consciousness, intellectually, but also actively, in reality, and therefore he sees himself in a world that he has created. In tearing away from man the object of his production, therefore, estranged labor tears from him his species-life, his real objectivity as a member of the species and transforms his advantage over animals into the disadvantage that his inorganic body, nature, is taken from him."
Marx says that private employment in which the exploited laborer produces objects belonging in every way to someone else is the "species-being" obscured & corrupted.
But man's natural state is to act upon the natural world & sustain oneself and larger society upon that action. The intervening alienation of private ownership & class division & labor division into a large "hyperexploited" subaltern & small non-working bourgeois hedonists is the contradiction Marx strains to point out
Capitalist leeches believe in not working too... at least they believe in retaining the privilege of not working for themselves lol
I didn't mean to imply that I'm a vocal advocate for antiwork theory, I'm just triggered by a leftist using "antiwork" as a dig because being antiwork sounds extremely good to me. Because work is bad. Who likes work? Some people might like their jobs, but literally everyone says that when you like your job it isn't "work" anymore. So even within the construct of capitalism, people have this concept that labor you enjoy doing isn't work. (They'd probably also say that it's not labor, since without a leftist understanding of things labor has a bad connotation too, since its associated with things like childbirth, but I think we can preserve the word labor as leftists because its taken on a leftist meaning and is used by leftist movements).
I don't agree with any argument that relies on concepts like "species-being". I don't think sapient beings have a "natural" way of existing. This is core to my argument against anti-communists saying it'll never work because human nature, because there is no fixed human nature. Sometimes lately I've been saying that humans are communal creatures, but I really ought to cut that out because it still relies on the idea that humans are naturally one way or the other. Capitalism socialized them into selfishness and competition, socialism would socialize them to cooperation. Its not because they are one way or the other, its because of how socialization works.
So when Marx goes off about terms like "species being", I don't agree with him on that point. And I strongly disagree that everyone in the world is wired to labor. I do agree with the fundamentals of the point that private employment alienates people from their labor, but thats a different point to me.
So maybe it wasn't Marx that said "work is alienated labor", but the statement still sounds correct to me. Without alienation, labor wouldn't be "work" anymore. It would be fundamentally something different. Its the same argument as police and prison abolition. Yes, there would still be law enforcement in some form, and we would still need to separate the truly dangerous from society, but the replacement would be so fundamentally different it couldn't be called police or prison anymore. I don't think leftists should call labor under socialism "work", because noone likes work. Like I said, even in a capitalist framework people have the concept that work is bad, but doing things you love isn't work even if it produces something.
Some "work" might be necessary to build socialism and furthermore communism, but I do think that a goal of a socialist society should be to keep it to a minimum, and divide it as equally as possible.
Like I'm mostly with you here but you doing this "antiwork" dig is uncomfortable for me because like, there are ableist implications to that that I really don't like. I'm "antiwork" because working as an autistic person has basically already drained me of the will to do any work again. And I'd hope that employment under a modern socialist system would be so fundamentally different that it wouldn't be "work" anymore. The fact that many abled/NT MLs don't seem to have a will to establish such a thing is probably my biggest issue with them. For me to believe that ML socialism would make a world that would like, actually be better for me in a fundamental way, I have to believe that employment under their system wouldn't be anything like it is under capitalism. Because sitting on my ass for three years contributing nothing doesn't make me happy either, but I'm too drained and traumatized by past experiences to go back to work.
socially necessary labor has to be done, & not only complained about. though I agree that work as it's conceived & carried out in present day capacities is beleaguering & tortuous. the key point is what the society values after that socially necessary labor is completed. Marx argues for a reduction of the working day and increases in free time
work must be defeated... which, in typical dialectical fashion, is a telos that actually requires real concerted work to achieve
human existence is itself labor & human beings require material resources & energy inputs & social structure in order mature & reproduce themselves.
disabled people & orphans & all those unable to work must be supported by those who do. nothing can change this
wishing for AI or FALGSC isn't the same as building them
Fair enough, thanks.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1289534971095339012
Lots of people in the replies saying that the video totally misinterprets "antiwork theory" though.
what is "anti-work" theory as it relates to societal progress and anti-capitalism?
Haven't read up on it, but the fact that Marx himself said that "work" is "alienated labor" seems to play into it. Which basically falls in line with what I was saying about post-capitalist labor shouldn't be work anymore.
so you adhere to and identify with "anti-work" "theory" even though you haven't read it?
and Marx didn't say "work" was "alienated labor", he said that private employment & accumulation of private property lead to that situation unnaturally in capitalism
"In creating a world of objects by his personal activity, in his work upon inorganic nature, man proves himself a conscious species-being, i.e., as a being that treats the species as his own essential being, or that treats itself as a species-being. Admittedly animals also produce. They build themselves nests, dwellings, like the bees, beavers, ants, etc. But an animal only produces what it immediately needs for itself or its young. It produces one-sidedly, whilst man produces universally. It produces only under the dominion of immediate physical need, whilst man produces even when he is free from physical need and only truly produces in freedom therefrom. An animal produces only itself, whilst man reproduces the whole of nature. An animal’s product belongs immediately to its physical body, whilst man freely confronts his product. An animal forms only in accordance with the standard and the need of the species to which it belongs, whilst man knows how to produce in accordance with the standard of every species, and knows how to apply everywhere the inherent standard to the object. Man therefore also forms objects in accordance with the laws of beauty.
It is just in his work upon the objective world, therefore, that man really proves himself to be a species-being. This production is his active species-life. Through this production, nature appears as his work and his reality. The object of labor is, therefore, the objectification of man’s species-life: for he duplicates himself not only, as in consciousness, intellectually, but also actively, in reality, and therefore he sees himself in a world that he has created. In tearing away from man the object of his production, therefore, estranged labor tears from him his species-life, his real objectivity as a member of the species and transforms his advantage over animals into the disadvantage that his inorganic body, nature, is taken from him."
Marx says that private employment in which the exploited laborer produces objects belonging in every way to someone else is the "species-being" obscured & corrupted.
But man's natural state is to act upon the natural world & sustain oneself and larger society upon that action. The intervening alienation of private ownership & class division & labor division into a large "hyperexploited" subaltern & small non-working bourgeois hedonists is the contradiction Marx strains to point out
Capitalist leeches believe in not working too... at least they believe in retaining the privilege of not working for themselves lol
I didn't mean to imply that I'm a vocal advocate for antiwork theory, I'm just triggered by a leftist using "antiwork" as a dig because being antiwork sounds extremely good to me. Because work is bad. Who likes work? Some people might like their jobs, but literally everyone says that when you like your job it isn't "work" anymore. So even within the construct of capitalism, people have this concept that labor you enjoy doing isn't work. (They'd probably also say that it's not labor, since without a leftist understanding of things labor has a bad connotation too, since its associated with things like childbirth, but I think we can preserve the word labor as leftists because its taken on a leftist meaning and is used by leftist movements).
I don't agree with any argument that relies on concepts like "species-being". I don't think sapient beings have a "natural" way of existing. This is core to my argument against anti-communists saying it'll never work because human nature, because there is no fixed human nature. Sometimes lately I've been saying that humans are communal creatures, but I really ought to cut that out because it still relies on the idea that humans are naturally one way or the other. Capitalism socialized them into selfishness and competition, socialism would socialize them to cooperation. Its not because they are one way or the other, its because of how socialization works.
So when Marx goes off about terms like "species being", I don't agree with him on that point. And I strongly disagree that everyone in the world is wired to labor. I do agree with the fundamentals of the point that private employment alienates people from their labor, but thats a different point to me.
So maybe it wasn't Marx that said "work is alienated labor", but the statement still sounds correct to me. Without alienation, labor wouldn't be "work" anymore. It would be fundamentally something different. Its the same argument as police and prison abolition. Yes, there would still be law enforcement in some form, and we would still need to separate the truly dangerous from society, but the replacement would be so fundamentally different it couldn't be called police or prison anymore. I don't think leftists should call labor under socialism "work", because noone likes work. Like I said, even in a capitalist framework people have the concept that work is bad, but doing things you love isn't work even if it produces something.
Some "work" might be necessary to build socialism and furthermore communism, but I do think that a goal of a socialist society should be to keep it to a minimum, and divide it as equally as possible.