capitalism & private property are the corrupting factors, not the burden of pressing socially necessary tasks that require completing and always have
like i said, capitalist owners & employers are also keen on not working... but they don't feel their employees deserve similarly lavish lifestyles. private property ownership can definitely protect you from the rigors of low wage private employment
so you see where we get into bourgeois decadence & laziness & backsliding very quickly here right?
No, because I'm not saying that only an elite class of people should be able to avoid work. I'm saying that unpleasant labor that would be considered "work" by my definition should be divided up in an equitable way, and everyone should contribute as long as they are capable. And, as much as possible, people should be doing jobs that they enjoy doing such that they wouldn't be doing what I would categorize as "work". Basically, unpleasant labor should be minimized, and hopefully eventually eliminated entirely.
people unable to work should be able to rely on others, but that means those dependents must be able to depend on everyone else. this goes for those kids you're talking about as well as retirees & the halt and infirm
suffering the slings & arrows of low-level wage labor doesn't entitle any healthy and capable person to indolence
I don't know why you're still talking like I'm advocating for people being indolent when I'm not? I'm advocating for minimizing unpleasant labor as much as possible and assigning it equitably and putting people in rolls they enjoy as much as we can. Are you even reading what I'm writing?
yes, capitalism also attempts to divide labor efficiently & economize decision-making through market forces & price signals... and capitalists view these things as equitable & maximizing human happiness.
I read what you have written, but I still don't see how being against work you don't like & still wanting to advance human civilization beyond necessary work actually square here. one is obviated by the other
i do not know how to remove suffering from the human condition, no more than I know how to prevent a baby from ever crying
unpleasant experiences & activities are sort of universal, except for people in vegetative states i suppose. but it's not as though they are engaging with "will" or "intention" anyway
One of the things I have written that you claim to have read is that I acknowledge that some unpleasant labor is necessary to build the sort of world I want, and then saying it should be assigned equitably and that, as much as possible, people should do work they enjoy. I have said this like, five times now. I don't plan on eliminating human suffering, I plan on minimizing it.
Capitalism tries to do that? News to me. But if it does, the results suck. Under socialism, they dont have to suck. Or they can minimally suck, suck just enough for whats necessary.
some in that estimation of yours seems to imply no more than is personally tolerable in your opinion
I agree that the most menial & non-glamorous jobs can be made more rewarding & humane & safe & even more efficient & socially-geared, but that doesn't mean human labor capacity & skill-acquisition/proficiency& identities built around these capacities will be made obsolete just because we've all taken shitty jobs that we don't identify with
some in that estimation of yours seems to imply no more than is personally tolerable in your opinion
Well I'm sorry for implying that apparently because that's not what I'm saying.
I agree that I will have to do work that I don't enjoy post-capitalism. I agree that everyone will. I literally just think that it can and should be minimized.
but that doesn’t mean human labor capacity & skill-acquisition& identities built around these capacities will be made obsolete
I have no idea what this bit has to do with anything that I've said.
it does, because you said earlier that you don't believe in a "species-being", even though Marx specifically said it was not "human-nature" as in a fixed & permanently defined thing. but changes with epochs & social modes etc.
"species-being" in this context has much to do with social relations and the ways that historical changes create new social necessities & niches that are filled by concerted human activity. that is a "homo faber", human producing
but I think it's a noteworthy contradiction to say your time/skill/effort is "alienated" in capitalism because of the kinds/conditions of jobs there are available, while also glossing over what those kinds/conditions of jobs have alienated you from.
capitalism & private property are the corrupting factors, not the burden of pressing socially necessary tasks that require completing and always have
like i said, capitalist owners & employers are also keen on not working... but they don't feel their employees deserve similarly lavish lifestyles. private property ownership can definitely protect you from the rigors of low wage private employment
so you see where we get into bourgeois decadence & laziness & backsliding very quickly here right?
No, because I'm not saying that only an elite class of people should be able to avoid work. I'm saying that unpleasant labor that would be considered "work" by my definition should be divided up in an equitable way, and everyone should contribute as long as they are capable. And, as much as possible, people should be doing jobs that they enjoy doing such that they wouldn't be doing what I would categorize as "work". Basically, unpleasant labor should be minimized, and hopefully eventually eliminated entirely.
people unable to work should be able to rely on others, but that means those dependents must be able to depend on everyone else. this goes for those kids you're talking about as well as retirees & the halt and infirm
suffering the slings & arrows of low-level wage labor doesn't entitle any healthy and capable person to indolence
I don't know why you're still talking like I'm advocating for people being indolent when I'm not? I'm advocating for minimizing unpleasant labor as much as possible and assigning it equitably and putting people in rolls they enjoy as much as we can. Are you even reading what I'm writing?
yes, capitalism also attempts to divide labor efficiently & economize decision-making through market forces & price signals... and capitalists view these things as equitable & maximizing human happiness.
I read what you have written, but I still don't see how being against work you don't like & still wanting to advance human civilization beyond necessary work actually square here. one is obviated by the other
i do not know how to remove suffering from the human condition, no more than I know how to prevent a baby from ever crying
unpleasant experiences & activities are sort of universal, except for people in vegetative states i suppose. but it's not as though they are engaging with "will" or "intention" anyway
One of the things I have written that you claim to have read is that I acknowledge that some unpleasant labor is necessary to build the sort of world I want, and then saying it should be assigned equitably and that, as much as possible, people should do work they enjoy. I have said this like, five times now. I don't plan on eliminating human suffering, I plan on minimizing it.
Capitalism tries to do that? News to me. But if it does, the results suck. Under socialism, they dont have to suck. Or they can minimally suck, suck just enough for whats necessary.
some in that estimation of yours seems to imply no more than is personally tolerable in your opinion
I agree that the most menial & non-glamorous jobs can be made more rewarding & humane & safe & even more efficient & socially-geared, but that doesn't mean human labor capacity & skill-acquisition/proficiency& identities built around these capacities will be made obsolete just because we've all taken shitty jobs that we don't identify with
Well I'm sorry for implying that apparently because that's not what I'm saying.
I agree that I will have to do work that I don't enjoy post-capitalism. I agree that everyone will. I literally just think that it can and should be minimized.
I have no idea what this bit has to do with anything that I've said.
it does, because you said earlier that you don't believe in a "species-being", even though Marx specifically said it was not "human-nature" as in a fixed & permanently defined thing. but changes with epochs & social modes etc.
"species-being" in this context has much to do with social relations and the ways that historical changes create new social necessities & niches that are filled by concerted human activity. that is a "homo faber", human producing
but I think it's a noteworthy contradiction to say your time/skill/effort is "alienated" in capitalism because of the kinds/conditions of jobs there are available, while also glossing over what those kinds/conditions of jobs have alienated you from.