saying that someone who recriminalised homosexuality did nothing wrong 'because he improved the general quality of life' sounds suspiciously like queer folk just being the cost of doing business
Yes Stalin was homophobic. He deserves criticism for this. Welcome to most people and countries (especially the Christian ones). I find it incredible that despite the fucking travesty that is the quality of life for queer folk in the USA, especially for black; indigenous; non-white peoples, certain folk have the gall to look back at a man born over 100 years ago, son to a poor family in a nation under the boot of Russian Empire and criticize him for not having perfect values when the common narrative of him as a monster is disrupted. Of course he wasn't perfect, of course he deserves criticism where criticism is due. However, there are a significant set of actions which deserve praise, especially relative to his common depiction.
That being said, it's not as if socialist governments that do well when it comes to queer rights are lauded for their efforts. The DDR made significant strides for the queer community yet is rarely (if ever) applauded in the west for this. Cuba still manages to get attacked on this front despite having the most progressive stance on the matter today. This criticism in this context never feels in good faith, it feels desperate and reaching for a way to conflate socialists and fascists.
Welcome to most people and countries (especially the Christian ones).|
I find it incredible that despite the fucking travesty that is the quality of life for queer folk in the USA
i wasn't comparing stalins policies to other countries, people or the USA, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
certain folk have the gall to look back at a man born over 100 years ago, son to a poor family in a nation under the boot of Russian Empire and criticize him for not having perfect values when the common narrative of him as a monster is disrupted
i wasnt commenting on him not being a monster, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
That being said, it’s not as if socialist governments that do well when it comes to queer rights are lauded for their efforts. The DDR made significant strides for the queer community yet is rarely (if ever) applauded in the west for this. Cuba still manages to get attacked on this front despite having the most progressive stance on the matter today. This criticism in this context never feels in good faith, it feels desperate and reaching for a way to conflate socialists and fascists.
i wasnt commenting on socialists or their policies, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
A whole bunch of people also said that Stalin 100% deserves criticism for failing queer folks.
i saw, im glad
The main reason why people rush to make a genuine defense of him - despite Hexbear’s overwhelming support for LGBTQ+ folks - is because the default stance of the propagandized West is that Stalin is effectively synonymous with Hitler, and undermining that attitude is a crucial element of peeling back over a century of anti-communist propaganda.
i dont think framing him as a purely good person is an effective way to undermine propaganda, especially when i see some hexbears convinced that stalin actually did no wrong, or that his anti LGBTQ policies are just liberal lies
at that point it seems like the memes meant to undermine western propaganda are actually just propagandising folks in a different direction, instead of making them less susceptible to said propaganda
never actually accepting criticism of inhumane policies as being done in good faith when its the wrong people being criticised undermines the whole 'critical support' schpiel
i dont think socialists and fascists are totally just the same thing, i dont think leftists are actually all closeted homophobes or even half as likely to be as the right
i think that framing one guy who pushed extreme anti lgbtq policies as having done nothing wrong is unhealthy and disturbing, especially since ive seen several hexbears completely unaware of it his anti LGBTQ policies, or completely convinced that him having said policies was actually just a shitlib lie
Fair, and thanks for this followup. For what its worth, I do think that your critique comes from a genuine place. I also think there is a space for more casual (and opposite the normal) rhetoric without putting an asterisk for each and every flaw. I'm not fully onboard with the "did nothing wrong" stuff, but it's just trying to get a rise out of people and shouldn't be taken as a real argument. Worth interrogating if that is worth it for sure.
i think that framing one guy who pushed extreme anti lgbtq policies as having done nothing wrong is unhealthy and disturbing, especially since ive seen several hexbears completely unaware of it his anti LGBTQ policies, or completely convinced that him having said policies was actually just a shitlib lie
Yeah, I might do an effort post follow up to this megathread that provides some grounded criticism of him if I can find the time.
Edit:
never actually accepting criticism of inhumane policies as being done in good faith when its the wrong people being criticised undermines the whole 'critical support' schpiel
I also just wanted to say I meant specifically when the narrative of stalin being a monster is disrupted (in the megathread, less so the specific comment). I should have been more clear.
That is true, but I still like it as a retort to lib criticism of Stalin that almost always involves something that didn't really happen anyway. As far as Stalin being homophobic, I don't know anything about it, but I do know that he knew that the false scarcity and false precariousness created by his capitalist and feudal enemies is what causes reactionary thought to flourish.
I still like it as a retort to lib criticism of Stalin that almost always involves something that didn’t really happen anyway
I don’t know anything about it,
do you reckon that waving criticisms off as 'almost always involving something that didn't really happen anyway' while not knowing anything about whats being criticised is a winning strategy, or that exclusively learning about the wholesome, sanitary parts of a persons actions, statements, ideals and beliefs is a healthy way to approach historical figures
saying that someone who recriminalised homosexuality did nothing wrong 'because he improved the general quality of life' sounds suspiciously like queer folk just being the cost of doing business
Yes Stalin was homophobic. He deserves criticism for this. Welcome to most people and countries (especially the Christian ones). I find it incredible that despite the fucking travesty that is the quality of life for queer folk in the USA, especially for black; indigenous; non-white peoples, certain folk have the gall to look back at a man born over 100 years ago, son to a poor family in a nation under the boot of Russian Empire and criticize him for not having perfect values when the common narrative of him as a monster is disrupted. Of course he wasn't perfect, of course he deserves criticism where criticism is due. However, there are a significant set of actions which deserve praise, especially relative to his common depiction.
That being said, it's not as if socialist governments that do well when it comes to queer rights are lauded for their efforts. The DDR made significant strides for the queer community yet is rarely (if ever) applauded in the west for this. Cuba still manages to get attacked on this front despite having the most progressive stance on the matter today. This criticism in this context never feels in good faith, it feels desperate and reaching for a way to conflate socialists and fascists.
i wasn't comparing stalins policies to other countries, people or the USA, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
i wasnt commenting on him not being a monster, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
i wasnt commenting on socialists or their policies, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
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i didnt figure it was until folks actually defended it seemingly completely genuinely
you can tell because "its true, generally good guy that made great strides for lgbtq folks" is actually also not an extremely serious statement
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i saw, im glad
i dont think framing him as a purely good person is an effective way to undermine propaganda, especially when i see some hexbears convinced that stalin actually did no wrong, or that his anti LGBTQ policies are just liberal lies
at that point it seems like the memes meant to undermine western propaganda are actually just propagandising folks in a different direction, instead of making them less susceptible to said propaganda
never actually accepting criticism of inhumane policies as being done in good faith when its the wrong people being criticised undermines the whole 'critical support' schpiel
i dont think socialists and fascists are totally just the same thing, i dont think leftists are actually all closeted homophobes or even half as likely to be as the right
i think that framing one guy who pushed extreme anti lgbtq policies as having done nothing wrong is unhealthy and disturbing, especially since ive seen several hexbears completely unaware of it his anti LGBTQ policies, or completely convinced that him having said policies was actually just a shitlib lie
Fair, and thanks for this followup. For what its worth, I do think that your critique comes from a genuine place. I also think there is a space for more casual (and opposite the normal) rhetoric without putting an asterisk for each and every flaw. I'm not fully onboard with the "did nothing wrong" stuff, but it's just trying to get a rise out of people and shouldn't be taken as a real argument. Worth interrogating if that is worth it for sure.
Yeah, I might do an effort post follow up to this megathread that provides some grounded criticism of him if I can find the time.
Edit:
I also just wanted to say I meant specifically when the narrative of stalin being a monster is disrupted (in the megathread, less so the specific comment). I should have been more clear.
i dont actually know which megathread this is about
Misspoke, my bad. Forgot that this post was a meme thread, was conflating it with something else
That is true, but I still like it as a retort to lib criticism of Stalin that almost always involves something that didn't really happen anyway. As far as Stalin being homophobic, I don't know anything about it, but I do know that he knew that the false scarcity and false precariousness created by his capitalist and feudal enemies is what causes reactionary thought to flourish.
do you reckon that waving criticisms off as 'almost always involving something that didn't really happen anyway' while not knowing anything about whats being criticised is a winning strategy, or that exclusively learning about the wholesome, sanitary parts of a persons actions, statements, ideals and beliefs is a healthy way to approach historical figures
heres some reading if youre interested, from a source youll probably actually appreciate