Fuck EU and it's nazi shit.
Hahaha, this is such whiny loser behavior. They chose to kill their own industries with the sanctions they effectively imposed on themselves, then they cry foul cause China is winning since it didn't do dumb shit like cut itself off from its main supplier of cheap energy or from a whole market of 140 mil people. Suddenly competition isn't so great when you're losing huh?
Also, what is stopping Europe from subsidizing its own industries more like China does? Oh yeah, the dumbass neoliberal rules that they imposed on themselves. So now because they are being fucked over by their own self-imposed limitations in what the state is allowed to do they expect other countries to shackle themselves in the same way? Lol.
And who are they going to go crying "no fair" to? The WTO? Good luck getting a sovereign state like China to let some loser Westoids dictate its domestic policies.
I can tell you right now what the Europeans are going to do which is what they always do: double down on their idiocy and resort to the only "solution" they know which is more sanctions. They're gonna try to ban Chinese EVs which won't really work because the demand will still be there so there will be a hundred loopholes and workarounds.
Instead it will hugely backfire as these things usually do, possibly ending with Europe losing the Chinese market for their own EV exports.
Like seriously, think about how dumb the things are that these people are saying: "keeping prices artificially low?". All prices are artificial, all prices are the result of human decision. When you sell your goods you're usually the one who gets to decide how low or how high the price is, and you are free to make it as much under the "market value" as you please. You can even choose to sell stuff for less than the cost of production so long as you can balance that out with positive revenue from other sources. Not that i believe Chinese EV manufacturers are making a loss, but let's say they were and let's say the state was purposely enabling and allowing that by subsidizing them, so what?
It is the sovereign right of every state to exercise as much or as little control over any industries that operate on their soil as they wish. Everything that is made by Chinese companies, whether nominally privately owned or state owned, is ultimately under the jurisdiction of the Chinese people. And the Chinese state as the representative of the people has the right to decide who their goods are sold to and at what price. The fact that they usually choose not to interfere directly in how private enterprises are run and instead allow the market to more or less dictate prices doesn't mean that they can't or won't interfere when the national interest of China is at stake.
And for the record i'm not suggesting that the Chinese state is itself setting the prices, of course it's the companies themselves that do it and they do it because they have decided it is good for business to do so, to undercut the competition and expand into their competitors' market space. All that the state does is help with some subsidies which is not unusual and nothing that Europeans or Americans haven't done themselves at times. State intervention in the economy isn't exclusive to socialist states like China.
As i said previously, this is simply sore loser behavior from the Europeans. They could be honest and admit that they need to employ protectionist measures because China as the bigger and more competitive economy will ruin their domestic industries otherwise. That would be ok. But if they admitted that then they'd have to admit that a) they are the inferior party (and their chauvinism won't allow them to admit that) and b) that whenever they have forced weaker countries in the global south to open up their economies and markets to free trade they knew this was detrimental to those countries and not intended to "help" them as the IMF or the WTO usually claim when they impose such conditions.
Great points, comrade.
I'd like to add a point (which I don't think contradicts you). The EU and the US heavily subsidise their ruling class but, like 'corruption/lobbying' they call it different things. Take Dublin, for example. What are Dublin's low taxes but a massive subsidy? There's a market logic to it, so it's not only for Europeans in a strict protectionist sense. But it does subsidise 'business' (at the expense of taxpayers).
There's also the welfare state. By providing some necessities (albeit these systems are crumbling), employers can pay significantly lower wages. If not for welfare, the workers would simply be unable to survive and/or perform on their other wages. Plus agricultural and fossil subsidies, which keeps some prices lower, enabling the workers to eat calorie dense foods and travel to work on their shit wages (which are shit even topped up with welfare).
I agree with you, though. These redacteds don't see these things as subsidies because their anti-trust laws say that they're not allowed therefore the decision makers must pretend that something else is happening.
Additionally – or maybe it's the same thing reworded – Anglo-European subsidies are often financial in nature. It's a roundabout way of funding industrial/agricultural production but it has two major flaws that will lead to the demise of neoliberal capitalism.
First, by strengthening finance capital, they accelerate the gap between financial and, let's say, productive capital. This is terrible for people as it contributes to rampant inflation and 'justifies' high interest rates. But it can only go on for so long before something like a war with Russia swings the bat of reality into their faces as they realise that increasing military expenditure to €Xbn doesn't mean shit if the money isn't spent on actual factories, etc. Same with the auto industry. It can only be used to leverage finance for so long before the cracks start to show.
Second, there's no guarantee that the subsidy is applied efficiently. By that, I mean, the only guarantee is that if you give neoliberal vampires a tax cut the only trickling down they'll be doing is with piss over the working class. The tax savings will be laundered through a tax haven.
In this sense, I suppose, these subsidies aren't subsidies. They are a way of funneling social wealth into a few private hands. Which brings us to one of the EU's unstated concerns: cheaper Chinese EVs (in cost, not quality) or any other commodity don't just risk European company sales; they risk doing to the tracks of the gravy train what the yanks did to the tracks of their real trains through simple neglect. The EU top brass knows the real movement to abolish the existing state of things has started and they have zero answers. Poor them.
The EU does subsidise it's own industry. Airbus is great because it was pumped with money which they didn't have to pay back.
Western Libs:"We'll need to make electric vehicles widespread to prevent climate change!"
China: "Say no more brah!" *Produces affordable electric cars".
Western Libs: "No not like that"
Guess what EU? Americans also subsidize their economy, but only the idiotic EU neoliberal countries can't do that. It's infuriating being ruled by incompetent idiots. Instead of adapting, they complain others aren't playing by the same rules. Rules that are just designed to weaken your economy it seems.
No matter what they pivot their subsidies to, China has the manufacturing power to fill that role completely unintentionally. It's like being amazed that Yamaha makes musical instruments as well as motorcycles, except it's a whole country instead of one company. The headline would be the same if the subsidy was for E scooters, caviar, semi conductors or horses. A "niche" market in China has more output than entire nations.
If the EU decided to subsidize, idk, electric biplanes at 10 am tomorrow, China would be in the top 5 manufacturers at 10:00:01, and within a year in the top 2.
A "niche" market in China has more output than entire nations.
God damn I never thought about it that way. Like... 5% of 1.4 billion is 75 million... UK has around 70 million people... that's fucking incredible. China can completely flood markets by just existing. I know not every Chinese citizen lives in their big cities and drives cars and whatnot, but yeah, this makes sense.
I know not every Chinese citizen lives in their big cities and drives cars and whatnot, but yeah, this makes sense.
Last I saw numbers, I think it was sometihng like 65-70% of the population is urban? So still a pretty massive number.
European equality seems to based around "equal opportunities to exploit".
Not even that equal, given how much they freak out over capitalist countries not "in the club" making deals
I always wanted to relive the 80's and 90's Anti-Japanese fanaticism when it came to the automobile industry. Are we going to see lawmakers smashing Chinese products on Capitol Hill again too?
Are there Chinese EVs even in the US currently? Itd be funny if some chud imported one just to performatively destroy it lol
BYD has been growing in popularity in Japan since they launched the Atto 3 this year, which is a bit surprising given how protective we are about using Japanese cars normally. There are a couple new models scheduled to be released soon. They made a really clever decision to use a lot of local Japanese manufactures for parts and molds, so local Japanese suppliers were a lot more receptive to them. People are lot more likely to look at your company favorably when you give locals jobs. I wouldn't be surprised if they were making a push to other markets including the US soon.
The US will probably try to block it by saying that they scan your brain as you drive and send to the data to the "evil ccp".
EDIT: I am personally looking at the Atto3 as my next car, as I moved somewhere where I probably need one. I am taking one for a test drive next week actually.
what would the probe find "China has been subsidising electric cars" that would be against EU regulations on what an economy can do but China notably aren't in the EU and thus don't have to do what Germany and France say
German right wing politician does politics in name of the German car industry, what a surprise.
It seems that we have an excuse for giving Some trouble to vw,bmw and benz
Given how common Volkswagens and Audis are in China, I'm certain Volkswagen group's shareholders and executives are currently pissing and shifting themselves.
How is this nazi shit? I feel like the word nazi is beeing thrown at everything people don't like these days.
"Fuck the EU and its Nazi shit" is just something that can always be added on posts and comments about the EU regardless of the specific topic because the EU is shit and it does Nazi shit. They mass murder migrants, they call non-white countries "jungles", and oh yeah, they arm and fund literal Nazis. Also, like NATO, it was basically founded by Nazis. Its current leader also happens to be proudly related to some very prominent Nazi aristocrats as well as American slave owners - it's a double whammy!
The eu does a lot if stuff that is very questionable. But nazis systematically kill people of other ethnic groups. The eu has a system of immigration and once you made in in its boarders you have the same rights as people who are born there. Not to mention people of specific ethics, who were born there and are by law treated the same as every other citizen.
But nazis systematically kill people of other ethnic groups.
Need a history lesson? Europeans in general have been practicing colonialism and killing other ethnic groups systematically for hundreds of years, before the nazis came into existence. They're still committing ethnic cleansing via the world bank and IMF in the global south too, to reduce potentially revolutionary population growth in "places we don't want it" (Bill Gates words)
Today I resigned from the staff of the International Monetary Fund after over twelve years, and after 1000 days of official Fund work in the field, hawking your medicine and your bag of tricks to governments and to peoples in Latin America and the Caribbean and Africa. To me resignation is a priceless liberation, for with it I have taken the first big step to that place where I may hope to wash my hands of what in my mind’s eye is the blood of millions of poor and starving peoples. Mr. Camdessus, the blood is so much, you know, it runs in rivers. It dries up too; it cakes all over me; sometimes I feel that there is not enough soap in the whole world to cleanse me from the things that I did do in your name and in the names of your predecessors, and under your official seal.
- Davison Budhoos IMF resignation letter
once you made it in its borders
Oh, is that why they choose to murder migrants while they're still in boats crossing the Mediterranean? Nice little loophole they found there...
are by law treated the same
You sure about that? Cause i sure as hell can tell you that Roma people are not treated the same. And recently apparently Russians have become subhumans in the eyes of Europeans too, now they've started confiscating their personal property just like the Nazis did to the Jews. And i won't even start with how refugees are treated, lots of EU countries won't even let them in, and if they do they treat them like garbage, they house them in inhumane conditions and don't even allow them to work.
Europeans do systematically kill people of other ethnic groups, they kill people in the global south all the time with their imperialism and their neo-colonialism, and after they've destabilized, destroyed and looted their countries they have the audacity to do their utmost, including killing them, to try and keep them out. It is no coincidence that the main founders of the EU were former Nazis, and the idea of a united Europe under German leadership, including regions ripped away from the Soviet Union to be part of this great Reich was a Nazi idea to begin with...and would you look at that, it's exactly what we have today.
They've already recreated Reichskomissariat Ostland in the Baltics, complete with German troops on their soil and openly Nazi worshipping, Holocaust-denying governments that treat ethnic Russians like non-citizens, now they dream of adding Reichskomissariat Ukraine to the EU Reich too. All this under a president of the European Commission whose family was deeply embedded into the Nazi system and whose grandfather in law was one of the main Nazi functionaries in charge of organizing the Holocaust in the Ukrainian Galicia.
'Progressive liberals' do use the term too loosely to mean people they don't like. You should not fall into the trap of subconsciously accepting the premises of that usage.
This is a Marxist instance. We understand what fascism/Nazism is materially. As cfgaussian notes, there's a racist, bigoted, utterly evil megalomaniac element to it. But (and I'm not saying cfgaussian is saying this) Nazism is not just some evil ideology that some evil people organised for a few years in the twentieth century. By that liberal/Nazi-apologist definition, it's over and done with. But it's more than that, and it does still apply today.
In a word, it's the cold and calculated response of capital to protect itself against a progressive change in the mode of production. It's what happens to liberalism when faced with socialism. It's a way of crushing worker power to make it easier and more profitable to do capitalism. It provides a framework for dividing the working class by race, gender, sexuality, origin, religion, accent, anything else you can name. Anything to stop the workers from working together.
Why is the EU doing Nazi shit? Not only does the EU do the evil megalomaniac cartoon villain thing, it also does the cold and calculated defense against socialism thing. In addition to cfgaussian's points, we must understand that socialism is an international movement.
Capitalism is zero-sum. If one wins, another loses. Socialism is logically far more co-operative. If one wins, another, somewhere else can also still win. There need not be losers, except the capitalists. Socialists anywhere work for socialists everywhere.
By manufacturing low cost EVs, China benefits the working class in three clear ways. One, Chinese workers are part of the global proletariat and they happen to control the state, which means if 'China' benefits, so does the proletariat, ab initio, by definition.
Two, this is very much a trade war not just against China but for (Anglo-)European capital. These are different things although they are interrelated – it's a dialectic. This is the EU setting up the framework to do whatever it takes to protect the Anglo-European empire.
Aside: this empire is the ideological child of Nazism. While the Nazi party was defeated, in part by inter-familial war, the ideology was not defeated. It's more glaring horrors were somewhat held at bay due to the threat of the USSR and the need to maintain good PR. But otherwise the west continued almost everything that Nazis were doing. They changed the name and some of the target-victims, and became more efficient.
Three, cheaper goods for Europe is good for European workers, directly. They mean European workers don't have to get into so much debt for vehicles. What do you think the Anglo-European finance capitalists want more, workers borrowing €40k for a European EV or €15k for a Chinese EV?
Hint: they don't gaf about the sale going to a Chinese firm if they can lend the money to a consumer and get a huge cut via interest payments. But they would prefer the interest on €40k over €15k any day. Not only for the car payments but also because the less debt a worker gets into, the faster they can pay off their total debt and the sooner they can become debt free, which puts a massive spanner in the cogs in hyper-financialised economies. Which means that China's policies work to benefit the European working class (another dialectic with point one) and to the disadvantage of the Anglo-European capitalist class.
Not to mention the benefit to the fight against climate change by filling the market with affordable EVs. This benefits everyone, everywhere. Anglo-Europeans overshot their fair share of carbon emissions a long time ago. But they keep going. Most don't have a choice. The sooner something can be done to minimise western emissions, the sooner the rest of the world can (a) heal and (b) develop without westerners saying 'don't you care about the planet?'
Edit: To clarify the implied conclusion, this is 'Nazi shit' because it shows the EU gearing up to attack socialism/ists to save capitalism. The liberal mask is slipping because capitalism is under threat. When the mask slips, the Nazism is revealed.
Note, I switched from EU to Anglo-European empire because these things are part of the same political economic ecosystem.
The "whole assay" (sic) explains in detail why the word "nazi" is, in fact, suitable in this case.
I was going to reply but, I mean, there are only so many ways that I'd be able to re-phrase what you said, so…
ig even the concept of making/expanding an argument is just whataboutism or deflection or whatever tf nowadays.
Hey, lemmygrad, what's your policy on allowing hexbearians to PPB libs participating in bad faith? We're technically not supposed to outside our home instance.
You didn't read his post I guess, or just skimp and reply which in this case is just disrespectful.
The obvious xenophobic statement of 'cheap' EV cars making their way into the precious global market, a market which use to be dominated by them. I would call it reactionary nonsense but nazi shit fits well too.
That may be the case, but we know what Nazi means and apply it where appropriate. We could also say fascist, in order to spark less of a knee jerk counter reaction.
Instead of admitting that China can make cheaper cars, they immediatly assume that it is because of subsidies (because they can't belive that asians who aren't "honorary whites" like the japanese can make good stuff that is also cheaper). Combining that with their support for real, authentic nazis in Ukraine, I think it is fair to call them nazis.
Nobody ever said that their cars are not as good. And this is definitely not a racial thing. The EU just wants to defend their own economy.
And i thought we are in a market driven fully capitalist system where the biggest winner will be granted the monopoly. So, with your logic US forced Japan to devalue their currency is protecting anglo Nazi economy but subsidizing EV manufacturers to produce cheap cars is against the EU economy and environment. Man, if my rule establishes in Europe you all will be deported to Africa to rebuild it with 1 time food and 4 times whips.
One of the worst cost of living crisis in the last few decades, and they're worried about prices being too low.
Is there any doubt that we're on the bad timeline?
