Watch the full conversation here: https://youtube.com/live/OVl9FGe8fno?feature=shareChris, Marcelina, and Max join Katie to discuss the historic UAW strike. ...
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that’s it. Nothing will be done about it.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
I'm an anarcho-communist, so I'm not saying the solutions to the world's problems can be solved within the system, but I also think there is value in being realistic and reducing harm with available tools and not making my enemy more powerful out of spite.
I'll reply to both of your comments just to be coherent:
(which seems to me to imply (in this case) don't bother voting, revolution is the only way to make things better)
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn't. My mentality on voting is that if it's easy to do then do it but there are counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote and often have to get to work. Is it worth it to browbeat these people who would rather do anything else? I would say not.
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more "realistic" to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution? There have been numerous revolutions and zero elections that have overthrown capitalism.
If you want to vote to improve things Godspeed and I'll even join you, but the notion that you'll achieve your goals of Socialism through voting is absurd. Direct action gets the goods and is infinitely more important than voting.
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn’t.
Amazing! I'd call this progress.
counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them. This problem would be easy to solve by increasing non-Republican voters (interestingly Taylor Swift may be helping here lol).
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
Ok, at least that's a consistent position. I expect to not see you denigrate people for eating meat or driving large vehicles.
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more “realistic” to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution?
Nope. But I think having people in power that don't have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier. As far as methods of moving beyond capitalism, I'm in favor of things like dual-power, mutual-aid, community level resilience and independence from capitalist and state systems -- and having fascists in power makes those things harder and riskier. When we know where our food is coming from when the grocery store is not an option, we can consider being able to fight for more than 2 days.
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them.
Yes, it is Republicans I'm not going to dispute that, but when Democrats are in power in these areas they do not wield power in a way that propagates it. And our state wide democratic party is extremely dysfunctional and unpopular. There are federal regulations that could be implemented by Democrats to reduce voting shenanigans and they did not pass it when they had the House, Senate, and Presidency. So again, if when Democrats get the vote they're unwilling to make changes that will make it easier for them to get elected why should I brow beat some person making $10 an hour to forgo $30 they need when Democrats won't do the best minimum to win? I would rather spend my time at our food pantry/garden.
I think having people in power that don't have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier.
No disagreement here I'm not an accelerationist, but I will reiterate that that is not an option in my area, the state run democratic party is extremely corrupt and useless. There's a lot of mutual aid groups in my area that get tacit support of conservatives because they're "apolitical" and are best able to function in this way. If Democrats get their shit together maybe it would be worth putting in effort for them, but as of now they're functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
Ok, I get that the Democrats are disfunctional, ineffective, and unpopular in your area. What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular? This will never happen if all the good people forfeit the game.
but as of now they’re functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
Hope -- hope that others will do the same and work together to make a better future. The pantry will be there next weekend.
This is some Obama era shit. Hope isn't feeding people.
What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular?
I am finishing my PhD and getting the fuck out of this state. Once I have the means I will absolutely run for school board to keep a lib or a hog out of the spot and promote a Marxist indoctrination of our nation's youth.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D.
Again, I'm not against voting for the lesser of two evils, but I am not going to spend my time advocating for an anti-choice, anti-trans, anti-gay hog. We have "progressives" who gain traction on a state wide basis and the Democratic party systematically kneecaps them every time because it is an old boys club.
Perfection is the enemy of progress.
I am not asking for perfection I am asking for the Democratic party to be a functional party, which it isn't despite having the governorship in my state.
Is that really how I'm using it? Am I asking anyone to shut up? No, you gave me a simple straw man argument and knocked it down.
No, I'm asking my comrades not be idiots that think we're really close enough to full on communist revolution that it's worth it to let fascists hurt people until we get there. Be realistic, if you really want to help people, pissing people off and letting fascists take power out of spite is not the way.
We all have a little bit of power to influence all kinds of stuff including US elections.. If our votes were not counted very rich people would not be wasting billions just to annoy people with too many political commercials.
The power (such as to end capitalism, not to control others) comes from influencing people and making more comrades which Hexbear is awful at.
We all have a little bit of power to influence all kinds of stuff including US elections
The outcome of most states (in fact most counties, most precincts) is already known and condidered locked. If you live in most of the country and your vote is counter to that, what power does your vote have?
If our votes were not counted very rich people would not be wasting billions just to annoy people with too many political commercials.
There's a lot of assumptions here. US presidential elections are multi billion dollar businesses. Political campaigns are a way for people to mske money. Rich people do waste billions on them. They are as grifted as anyone else, when it comes to this hollow polical system.
making more comrades which Hexbear is awful at
Seems to be a lot of comrades around here, and we've attracted a lot more since federation began. We're a non-sectarian space, but it is true that we aren't trying to be welcoming to s because they aren't comrades at all and will not be unless they abandon their liberalism
On Hexbear? I don't believe I have any methods to figure that out. I'd imagine not many, people don't like their ideology poked with sticks. I'm more hoping to get people to question their allegiance to super rich powerful men that lead states and tell their followers that supporting their power is what's best for everyone.
I'm more hoping to get people to question their allegiance to super rich powerful men that lead states and tell their followers that supporting their power is what's best for everyone.
By telling communists they need to VOOOOOOOOTE for Biden?
I don't believe I have any methods to figure that out.
No need to take it so seriously. I was mocking you and your concern trolling
Voting for a piece of legislation, cool. Which is why all the cool things that people want don't get put up for public votes, we might actually get good stuff.
Voting for a person, who then gets to whatever they want carte blanche style for their entire term, meh.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda. That's pure projection. You think you're doing something by voting and by telling us to vote. Its an empty sacrement that absolves you by participating in it. And like all hollow religions, its adherents need others to believe.
You might want to consider looking for realistic solutions rather than entertaining the idea that one person will convience a few thousand people (who spend free time pissing people off by being openly communist while online for fun) of the importance of ing in a fake democracy
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda
I disagree here - I think cultural change is the harbinger of societal change. I for example called myself liberal, capitalist, and the thought of abolishing the police was unthinkable - until I was exposed to Beau of the Fifth Column and people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types) that exposed me to new ideas.
I'd imagine if Beau called me an idiot and transphobe I probably would not have been convinced. I'm currently working to build community, this started online.
I know you disagree, that's why you're all worked up about on a communist site. You're projecting that onto us.
people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types)
I'll overlook the petty sectarianism here, and just say that we are nice, just not toward people hectoring us about like we don't already know. Some of us do, some of us don't. Some of us see the point in strategic voting if you live in the handful of states (counties really) where you vote matters in a presidential election, and some of don't care even for that arguement.
What we all agree on is that the kind of evangelism your on about is nonsense.
Weird definition of liberal but I'll take it. My panties are not in a bunch because people call me a liberal, especially when it has to be redefined to apply.
I'm not defining or redefining anything. I'm saying VOTE evangelism is some lib nonsense, that's really the extent of what I'm saying.
voting is fine if you think there's a reason to engage in liberal democracy. Sometimes their are reasons to. There's never a reason to VOOOOTE evangelize on a left space
We've talked about that, this is not an actual thing that exists. It only exists on your political compass which is bullshit.
mislead thinking that people like Xi actually care about minorities, LGBT, etc.
We support AES states. We don't have parasocial relationships with the individuals in charge. I don't pretend to know what Xi "cares" about on a personal level. I support the CPC, and think Xi's leadership has been a positive force. I'm not misled in this.
People learn about atrocities and lies in U.S. history and that seems to make them think that enemies of the U.S. must be good, but that's a fallacy.
So which enemies of the US are bad and which are good?
We support AES here. We don't support them just because they are enemies of the US. They are enemies precisely because they are AES. Some US enemies that aren't AES like Iran or Russia we don't support, although we have critical support for them in their conflicts with US hegemony.
None of these positions are based on assumptions of "goodness."
I hope that somebody reading my comments will start to question their allegiance to rich powerful men like Xi and Putin
We don't have allegiance to Xi as a person. We have support of the CPC. We support the direction of things have gone in under his leadership, but as comminists we recognize he is only one man among many doing the work of building socialism. We have alliegence to everyone building socialism in thevreal world. Your not going to find support for Great Man Theory here, as much as you imagine it.
No one here has alligence to Putin. We have some critical support for the Russian Federations in its conflict with the US as i already explained. That's not allegiance to Putin no matter what you want to imagine are assume.
Let's say Dems and Repubs are identical in most ways (colonialism, etc). It's a fact that fascists are more dangerous to vulnerable populations than garden variety conservatives (if you don't get this you must be either privileged or just don't care about the collateral damage caused attempting to get your way). Therefore it makes sense for a member of one or more of these vulnerable populations (which I am) to encourage using a provided mechanism (voting) that people fought for in an attempt at self-preservation as well as preservation of other vulnerable groups.
Everyone here knows that! The USians here all know how US elections work! We don't need anyone to tell us that.
Since we know how these elections work we also know that in presidential elections most of the populations votes don't matter. There are a handful of swing states, and even then its a handful of counties that determine presidential elections. The vast majority of Congress are safe districts. Senators are largely locked in a similar way that the electoral map breaks down. Its all designed to promote minority rule.
This is the reality of elections in the US. People here have different views on how to engage with this system, based on an understanding of the reality of it. And many of us are people directly targeted by fascists, and they aren't intetested in your vote evangelism either. There are times and arguements and circumstances where voting makes sense, but voooote evangelism is not that arguement, and presidential elections are usually not that circumstance.
No one here outright opposes voting in the right circumstances. That's why I'm saying that your whole exercise here is pointless. We don't oppose voting, we oppose voooooooote bullshit.
Votes are earned.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
I'm an anarcho-communist, so I'm not saying the solutions to the world's problems can be solved within the system, but I also think there is value in being realistic and reducing harm with available tools and not making my enemy more powerful out of spite.
I'll reply to both of your comments just to be coherent:
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn't. My mentality on voting is that if it's easy to do then do it but there are counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote and often have to get to work. Is it worth it to browbeat these people who would rather do anything else? I would say not.
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more "realistic" to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution? There have been numerous revolutions and zero elections that have overthrown capitalism.
If you want to vote to improve things Godspeed and I'll even join you, but the notion that you'll achieve your goals of Socialism through voting is absurd. Direct action gets the goods and is infinitely more important than voting.
Amazing! I'd call this progress.
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them. This problem would be easy to solve by increasing non-Republican voters (interestingly Taylor Swift may be helping here lol).
Ok, at least that's a consistent position. I expect to not see you denigrate people for eating meat or driving large vehicles.
Nope. But I think having people in power that don't have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier. As far as methods of moving beyond capitalism, I'm in favor of things like dual-power, mutual-aid, community level resilience and independence from capitalist and state systems -- and having fascists in power makes those things harder and riskier. When we know where our food is coming from when the grocery store is not an option, we can consider being able to fight for more than 2 days.
Yes, it is Republicans I'm not going to dispute that, but when Democrats are in power in these areas they do not wield power in a way that propagates it. And our state wide democratic party is extremely dysfunctional and unpopular. There are federal regulations that could be implemented by Democrats to reduce voting shenanigans and they did not pass it when they had the House, Senate, and Presidency. So again, if when Democrats get the vote they're unwilling to make changes that will make it easier for them to get elected why should I brow beat some person making $10 an hour to forgo $30 they need when Democrats won't do the best minimum to win? I would rather spend my time at our food pantry/garden.
No disagreement here I'm not an accelerationist, but I will reiterate that that is not an option in my area, the state run democratic party is extremely corrupt and useless. There's a lot of mutual aid groups in my area that get tacit support of conservatives because they're "apolitical" and are best able to function in this way. If Democrats get their shit together maybe it would be worth putting in effort for them, but as of now they're functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
Forgot to add
Hope -- hope that others will do the same and work together to make a better future. The pantry will be there next weekend.
It's false hope, and that false hope brings complacency. why organize when voting is sufficient?
Ok, I get that the Democrats are disfunctional, ineffective, and unpopular in your area. What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular? This will never happen if all the good people forfeit the game.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
This is some Obama era shit. Hope isn't feeding people.
I am finishing my PhD and getting the fuck out of this state. Once I have the means I will absolutely run for school board to keep a lib or a hog out of the spot and promote a Marxist indoctrination of our nation's youth.
Again, I'm not against voting for the lesser of two evils, but I am not going to spend my time advocating for an anti-choice, anti-trans, anti-gay hog. We have "progressives" who gain traction on a state wide basis and the Democratic party systematically kneecaps them every time because it is an old boys club.
I am not asking for perfection I am asking for the Democratic party to be a functional party, which it isn't despite having the governorship in my state.
And when the D's lose... because the D's lost enough times that the R's now run the state... what do you do then?
This phrase is the enemy of progress.
Its always used to argue for why we need to allow some lib bullshit, and shut up.
Is that really how I'm using it? Am I asking anyone to shut up? No, you gave me a simple straw man argument and knocked it down.
No, I'm asking my comrades not be idiots that think we're really close enough to full on communist revolution that it's worth it to let fascists hurt people until we get there. Be realistic, if you really want to help people, pissing people off and letting fascists take power out of spite is not the way.
Believing that the people on this site have the power to influence US elections is what's not realistic
We all have a little bit of power to influence all kinds of stuff including US elections.. If our votes were not counted very rich people would not be wasting billions just to annoy people with too many political commercials.
The power (such as to end capitalism, not to control others) comes from influencing people and making more comrades which Hexbear is awful at.
The outcome of most states (in fact most counties, most precincts) is already known and condidered locked. If you live in most of the country and your vote is counter to that, what power does your vote have?
There's a lot of assumptions here. US presidential elections are multi billion dollar businesses. Political campaigns are a way for people to mske money. Rich people do waste billions on them. They are as grifted as anyone else, when it comes to this hollow polical system.
Seems to be a lot of comrades around here, and we've attracted a lot more since federation began. We're a non-sectarian space, but it is true that we aren't trying to be welcoming to
s because they aren't comrades at all and will not be unless they abandon their liberalism
An insulting people is your method to get them to abandon liberalism? Doesn't seem very effective to me but if you say it's working, good for y'all.
How many comrades are you making right now?
On Hexbear? I don't believe I have any methods to figure that out. I'd imagine not many, people don't like their ideology poked with sticks. I'm more hoping to get people to question their allegiance to super rich powerful men that lead states and tell their followers that supporting their power is what's best for everyone.
By telling communists they need to VOOOOOOOOTE for Biden?
No need to take it so seriously. I was mocking you and your concern trolling
Voting for a piece of legislation, cool. Which is why all the cool things that people want don't get put up for public votes, we might actually get good stuff.
Voting for a person, who then gets to whatever they want carte blanche style for their entire term, meh.
Direct democracy, I agree would be better than representative, and maybe now even possible/practical with the internet.
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda. That's pure projection. You think you're doing something by voting and by telling us to vote. Its an empty sacrement that absolves you by participating in it. And like all hollow religions, its adherents need others to believe.
You might want to consider looking for realistic solutions rather than entertaining the idea that one person will convience a few thousand people (who spend free time pissing people off by being openly communist while online for fun) of the importance of
ing in a fake democracy
I disagree here - I think cultural change is the harbinger of societal change. I for example called myself liberal, capitalist, and the thought of abolishing the police was unthinkable - until I was exposed to Beau of the Fifth Column and people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types) that exposed me to new ideas.
I'd imagine if Beau called me an idiot and transphobe I probably would not have been convinced. I'm currently working to build community, this started online.
I know you disagree, that's why you're all worked up about
on a communist site. You're projecting that onto us.
I'll overlook the petty sectarianism here, and just say that we are nice, just not toward people hectoring us about
like we don't already know. Some of us do, some of us don't. Some of us see the point in strategic voting if you live in the handful of states (counties really) where you vote matters in a presidential election, and some of don't care even for that arguement.
What we all agree on is that the kind of
evangelism your on about is 
nonsense.
Removed by mod
This is actually not the part that makes you a lib. Hectoring people in a left space about VOTE is what we consider lib
Weird definition of liberal but I'll take it. My panties are not in a bunch because people call me a liberal, especially when it has to be redefined to apply.
I'm not defining or redefining anything. I'm saying VOTE evangelism is some lib nonsense, that's really the extent of what I'm saying.
voting is fine if you think there's a reason to engage in liberal democracy. Sometimes their are reasons to. There's never a reason to VOOOOTE evangelize on a left space
Removed by mod
We've talked about that, this is not an actual thing that exists. It only exists on your political compass which is bullshit.
We support AES states. We don't have parasocial relationships with the individuals in charge. I don't pretend to know what Xi "cares" about on a personal level. I support the CPC, and think Xi's leadership has been a positive force. I'm not misled in this.
So which enemies of the US are bad and which are good?
We support AES here. We don't support them just because they are enemies of the US. They are enemies precisely because they are AES. Some US enemies that aren't AES like Iran or Russia we don't support, although we have critical support for them in their conflicts with US hegemony.
None of these positions are based on assumptions of "goodness."
We don't have allegiance to Xi as a person. We have support of the CPC. We support the direction of things have gone in under his leadership, but as comminists we recognize he is only one man among many doing the work of building socialism. We have alliegence to everyone building socialism in thevreal world. Your not going to find support for Great Man Theory here, as much as you imagine it.
No one here has alligence to Putin. We have some critical support for the Russian Federations in its conflict with the US as i already explained. That's not allegiance to Putin no matter what you want to imagine are assume.
Everyone here knows that! The USians here all know how US elections work! We don't need anyone to tell us that.
Since we know how these elections work we also know that in presidential elections most of the populations votes don't matter. There are a handful of swing states, and even then its a handful of counties that determine presidential elections. The vast majority of Congress are safe districts. Senators are largely locked in a similar way that the electoral map breaks down. Its all designed to promote minority rule.
This is the reality of elections in the US. People here have different views on how to engage with this system, based on an understanding of the reality of it. And many of us are people directly targeted by fascists, and they aren't intetested in your vote evangelism either. There are times and arguements and circumstances where voting makes sense, but voooote evangelism is not that arguement, and presidential elections are usually not that circumstance.
No one here outright opposes voting in the right circumstances. That's why I'm saying that your whole exercise here is pointless. We don't oppose voting, we oppose voooooooote bullshit.