It's often observed that there's a pipeline for a certain kind of lonely young man to find some right-wing personality who tells them that their lack of connection to other people and lack of romantic relationships isn't their fault -- it's the fault of e.g. feminism, liberalism, leftism, postmodern neomarxism, whatever series of words they want -- and then give them "pick up artist"-type advice on how to talk to women, usually in a very manipulative way that dehumanizes women.
I never participated in those communities because of the overt sexism, racism, homophobia, general right-wing beliefs, etc. But I do sometimes look at the people in those communities and think "There, but for the grace of god, go I." On paper, I have a lot in common with "incels", in that I'm 29 years old and have never had sex with another person, or been in a relationship, or even been on a capital-D Date.
(I'm going to be ranting a bit about myself here, and I realize that it's generally boring to read men complaining about how lonely they are. Leaving aside for the moment the question of why this is so common that it's become boring, I'll try to avoid being too self-pitying and stick to information and questions I think will be interesting or relatable to other people besides myself.)
I think a lot of people make all their dating mistakes in high school, so that by the time they're in their 20s, they've learned the basic dating scripts. I never learned that. I never even really got comfortable talking about sex and relationships -- my parents didn't talk to me about sex or dating, I never talked about it with my friends in high school, and I can't think of anyone in my life who I would be comfortable contacting to say "I have a crush on <person>, what should I do?" I don't have the vocabulary for it. I literally don't know what to do when I am attracted to someone. I know a bunch of things NOT to do -- e.g. obvious things like don't harass them, don't stalk them, don't abuse or manipulate them. In other words, don't be an asshole. Which is true enough as far as it goes, but those are just good rules on how I should treat EVERYONE, not specifically people I'm romantically interested in.
As far as positive actions I can take, the most I can figure is:
- Try to spend more time with that person, going on small outings at first (e.g. walks, coffee) to get to know them better.
- In general, take care of myself and my own life, on the reasoning that people are attracted to someone who has their life together. (Oh, and also because I'm a person who matters and my own health and happiness are important for their own sake, but whatever.)
- Put some more effort into my appearance -- improving my clothing style, having some kind of skin care routine, and maybe getting a better haircut seem like good low-hanging fruit.
Okay, but this is still just generally good life advice outside of dating. It still seems like there are a lot of steps between "take basic care of myself and spend time with other humans" and actually getting into a relationship with someone. I'm fortunate enough to know lots of happy couples, but it's like, I've never "watched" two people fall in love, you know? I have lots of models in my life of people who are good partners in an existing relationship, but that tells me nothing about the initial process of attracting someone. I don't know what the process is supposed to be like. And I don't want to rely too much on the fictional examples I've seen -- it's become a cliche to point out that movies and TV show very unrealistic depictions of how relationships develop. So that leaves me without any narratives to inform me. (Although, if anyone knows of any fictional examples of a developing relationship that they see as being healthy models, please let me know.)
I believe that my experiences are a bit unusual, but not that uncommon among men my age (and especially among men my age who use the internet a lot). It might be reasonable to ask why this is. And an online right-wing asshole would give an explanation that involves the top 10% of alpha males taking the top 50% of women for themselves, leaving omegas like me with nothing. Which is silly, but I wonder if this is one of the many cases where right-wingers have (a) correctly noticed that there is a problem that center-liberals have ignored, but (b) completely misdiagnosed it so they could put forward their own racist, sexist, just generally awful ideology.
So, with all that in mind, what I would really love to see is resources for dating advice that:
- Acknowledges that all people involved are humans deserving of respect. I really hate "seduction" advice, for any gender, that treats the person you're attracted to as a "mark" or a "victim" or someone you need to manipulate or deceive. If I thought that were a necessary part of starting a relationship, I'd rather die alone than deliberately abuse another person for my own gain. But -- as evidenced by the fact that I have friends who are in relationships and aren't assholes -- I don't think it should have to come to that.
- Acknowledges that dating and attraction are complicated, non-obvious things that warrant explicit explanations. It's a cliche that "Just be yourself" is bad advice, but alternatives like "Just spend time around other people and don't be an asshole and eventually someone will fuck you" aren't much better. I'm not sure if I would describe myself as autistic, but I have found that it is very helpful for me to have certain supposedly "common-sense" things about interacting with other people explicitly explained to me.
- Is specific to men, especially in a North American context. I'm sure there is some dating advice that applies to everyone, but the fact is, gender is (currently) something that has real effects on people's experiences, so it would surprise me if, for something as intrinsically gender-related as dating and attraction, there's not some good advice that's specific to men who are attracted to women.
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I have to be honest: I personally find "Get more experience!" too vague to be useful advice. Experience doing what, and how? The answer may be obvious to you and maybe you think I'm dense for asking, but that's kind of my point with this whole post -- it's not obvious to me, and it can be very frustrating to watch the majority of people seemingly effortlessly do something that seems impossible to me.
This is specific enough to be potentially helpful. I will say that, in my adult life, I've told two people that I was attracted to them. In both cases, it didn't lead to a relationship, but I am still on good terms with both people and neither of them seemed creeped out or offended about my bringing it up, which seems like a sign that I am not completely hopeless.
I appreciate your taking the time to respond, and I hope that my response to your first comment comes across as an honest expression of my response rather than as an attack.
Yes, more or less once you feel attracted to someone you can a) very clearly ask them out on a date (use that word explicitly - “was wondering if you would want to go on a date some time?”) and in the positive case, they’ll say yes (unfortunately, <10% of the time, due to essentially bad luck) and b) in the negative case, you have to give them a wide berth and as you found, the platonic relationship can even be salvageable if you want (I personally don’t though, I often find).
Easier said than done, of course. I’ve only managed it myself in one occasion I can recall... on other occasions I was cowardly and did not ask them in a way that was clear, which made it more confusing and ultimately painful, which is why I took the below tactic:
Or honestly, just use Bumble or even Tinder or some app where the premise is romantic interest and that’s understood from the getgo without having to go out on a limb and ask more or less if they’re willing for that.
It is unfortunately a numbers game; it is inevitably painful because it’s personal; but it gets easier with time, I’d like to believe at least.
These apps have a reputation as being for hookups, but I primarily found women who were either bored, unsure what they're looking for, and/or primarily looking for validation by being approached. Like all social media, the platforms encourage and reward behavior that isn't exactly normal or healthy. This is just my personal observation based on my own age/location/orientation/appearance/etc., but the occasional data I've seen more or less supports this I believe.
If you're looking for a relationship, or even hookups, these apps are pretty disfunctional, and likely frustrating. But if you're looking for conversation and practice with getting to know people and getting over any anxiety and maybe a few idle coffee dates, I think they could be useful, as long as you keep those expectations in mind.
Hm. I met my partner and I have heard many stories of other people doing so also on Tinder (less so Bumble).
This I found to be true but not necessarily problematically so (unhealthy). It is certainly abnormal from a pre-app world standpoint but that is not an inherent issue as far as I can see*. Was hoping you could expand on this a bit?
And these factors don’t seem to be at all mutually exclusive from what one might consider to be a good long term relationship (if OP wants that, which he may not even at this point).
The quote that implies your disagreement:
* I am somewhat anprim to be fair but that is a different and holistic topic
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Thank for understanding. I'm finding your elaboration gives me more to chew on.
This is interesting to me, especially that last sentence -- it makes sense that there wouldn't be just one script for how a relationship develops.
I've been thinking about this a little bit. My parents met through a local musical theatre group. My older brothers met their wives through hobbies and work. The two people I mentioned who I mentioned my attraction to but where it didn't go anywhere are both people I met in groups based around an interest (a choir and a book club -- and some of the couples I know met each other in the exact same groups). It seems probable to me that, when I meet someone (I'll be optimistic and say "when"), it will be because of our mutual interest in some activity/hobby/interest. Of course, it's a bit tricky to meet with groups of people during the pandemic.
Ah, well, THERE'S my problem!
Okay, I'm being a bit facetious. I have people who could reasonably be described as friends, but I don't really have any very close friendships. And I get the sense that the skills it takes to be in a relationship have a lot of overlap with the skills it takes to maintain a close friendship. Maintaining my current friendships seems like a potentially good intermediate goal i.e. a bit of a challenge for me, but without feeling unattainable in the way that getting into a romantic relationship currently feels unattainable. Plus, it's something I think I'd find easier to do during the pandemic than pursuing a romantic relationship right away.
This, in particular, has always been a challenge for me. It hasn't been until the last few years that I've even started saying "I love you" to my parents at the end of my phone calls with them. It's not that I don't love them, it's just that verbally expressing affection is a habit I need to develop more.