It's often observed that there's a pipeline for a certain kind of lonely young man to find some right-wing personality who tells them that their lack of connection to other people and lack of romantic relationships isn't their fault -- it's the fault of e.g. feminism, liberalism, leftism, postmodern neomarxism, whatever series of words they want -- and then give them "pick up artist"-type advice on how to talk to women, usually in a very manipulative way that dehumanizes women.
I never participated in those communities because of the overt sexism, racism, homophobia, general right-wing beliefs, etc. But I do sometimes look at the people in those communities and think "There, but for the grace of god, go I." On paper, I have a lot in common with "incels", in that I'm 29 years old and have never had sex with another person, or been in a relationship, or even been on a capital-D Date.
(I'm going to be ranting a bit about myself here, and I realize that it's generally boring to read men complaining about how lonely they are. Leaving aside for the moment the question of why this is so common that it's become boring, I'll try to avoid being too self-pitying and stick to information and questions I think will be interesting or relatable to other people besides myself.)
I think a lot of people make all their dating mistakes in high school, so that by the time they're in their 20s, they've learned the basic dating scripts. I never learned that. I never even really got comfortable talking about sex and relationships -- my parents didn't talk to me about sex or dating, I never talked about it with my friends in high school, and I can't think of anyone in my life who I would be comfortable contacting to say "I have a crush on <person>, what should I do?" I don't have the vocabulary for it. I literally don't know what to do when I am attracted to someone. I know a bunch of things NOT to do -- e.g. obvious things like don't harass them, don't stalk them, don't abuse or manipulate them. In other words, don't be an asshole. Which is true enough as far as it goes, but those are just good rules on how I should treat EVERYONE, not specifically people I'm romantically interested in.
As far as positive actions I can take, the most I can figure is:
- Try to spend more time with that person, going on small outings at first (e.g. walks, coffee) to get to know them better.
- In general, take care of myself and my own life, on the reasoning that people are attracted to someone who has their life together. (Oh, and also because I'm a person who matters and my own health and happiness are important for their own sake, but whatever.)
- Put some more effort into my appearance -- improving my clothing style, having some kind of skin care routine, and maybe getting a better haircut seem like good low-hanging fruit.
Okay, but this is still just generally good life advice outside of dating. It still seems like there are a lot of steps between "take basic care of myself and spend time with other humans" and actually getting into a relationship with someone. I'm fortunate enough to know lots of happy couples, but it's like, I've never "watched" two people fall in love, you know? I have lots of models in my life of people who are good partners in an existing relationship, but that tells me nothing about the initial process of attracting someone. I don't know what the process is supposed to be like. And I don't want to rely too much on the fictional examples I've seen -- it's become a cliche to point out that movies and TV show very unrealistic depictions of how relationships develop. So that leaves me without any narratives to inform me. (Although, if anyone knows of any fictional examples of a developing relationship that they see as being healthy models, please let me know.)
I believe that my experiences are a bit unusual, but not that uncommon among men my age (and especially among men my age who use the internet a lot). It might be reasonable to ask why this is. And an online right-wing asshole would give an explanation that involves the top 10% of alpha males taking the top 50% of women for themselves, leaving omegas like me with nothing. Which is silly, but I wonder if this is one of the many cases where right-wingers have (a) correctly noticed that there is a problem that center-liberals have ignored, but (b) completely misdiagnosed it so they could put forward their own racist, sexist, just generally awful ideology.
So, with all that in mind, what I would really love to see is resources for dating advice that:
- Acknowledges that all people involved are humans deserving of respect. I really hate "seduction" advice, for any gender, that treats the person you're attracted to as a "mark" or a "victim" or someone you need to manipulate or deceive. If I thought that were a necessary part of starting a relationship, I'd rather die alone than deliberately abuse another person for my own gain. But -- as evidenced by the fact that I have friends who are in relationships and aren't assholes -- I don't think it should have to come to that.
- Acknowledges that dating and attraction are complicated, non-obvious things that warrant explicit explanations. It's a cliche that "Just be yourself" is bad advice, but alternatives like "Just spend time around other people and don't be an asshole and eventually someone will fuck you" aren't much better. I'm not sure if I would describe myself as autistic, but I have found that it is very helpful for me to have certain supposedly "common-sense" things about interacting with other people explicitly explained to me.
- Is specific to men, especially in a North American context. I'm sure there is some dating advice that applies to everyone, but the fact is, gender is (currently) something that has real effects on people's experiences, so it would surprise me if, for something as intrinsically gender-related as dating and attraction, there's not some good advice that's specific to men who are attracted to women.
How come no one is talking about inflating your neck frill and hissing? It's practically a silver bullet.
Might get a bit of heat for this one, but take the PUA/redpill advice but shave the misogyny off. The vast majority of it is just basic people skills, justified through a weird evo-psych perspective. I guarantee you you can rewrite the vast majority of PUA advice from a socialist/feminist lens.
Get in shape, get hobbies, and care about yourself? Yeah, decent advice. You don’t need a partner to complete you.
Put yourself out there, ask women out, and don’t take rejection too harshly? Good call. Women are people too, but regrettably societal roles dictate men do much of the approaching, so roll with it.
Don’t put any one woman on a pedestal? Sure. Women are only human, and no one likes an obsessive.
Clean your room? But of course. She’s not your mum.
Keep things light hearted and tease the other person every so often? Yup, that’s good shit. Everyone’s so fucked with the malaise of capitalism that no one wants difficulty in a relationship.
Be reliable and emotionally stable? Sounds good to me. Don’t make her responsible for your emotional well-being—all too often women are forced to perform emotional labour for their partners.
Don’t stick around in the friend zone expecting her to fuck you? Well duh. If you want to be friends with a woman, do so for it’s own sake, and if something more comes of it, that’s just a bonus. You’re not entitled to sex just because you give her the time of day.
Obviously there are some profoundly shitty takes and profoundly shitty advice within PUA, the evo-psych basis is flimsy as hell, and it’s all wrapped in a thin grime of misogyny. The reason it gets traction is that, on the whole, it provides semi-decent advice for confused young men.
P.S. I realize a lot of what I've talked about has been about starting a relationship. But I won't lie, I wouldn't be opposed to advice on initiating casual sex -- don't want to knock it 'til I've tried it, and again, this is an area where a lot of the advice I find seems very dehumanizing to the people involved.
Had a whole thing written out but thought better. In the same boat as you but a year younger. While it's admirable you came to this comm it might be best to ask women directly on how to court or date.
Sometimes asking the women in your life can help, learned from my sister that if I like lady I shouldn't be quiet around them because they will think I hate them. Or from my mom that if a lady likes me the date doesn't have to be expensive just something to bond over would be good. For more advance like sex I usually read what women have to say on this. For as wild as the horny threads got I'm happy that I had the idea to ask our comrades here what they liked about x or y. This had to be the best thing from those threads, the empathy building in realizing women are also sexual. I know it's basic but important in humanizing women, they aren't from another planet but horny comrades in arms.
Point is if women say something then listen. This is what distinguishes us from the right, we realize we don't know stuff and try to learn from those that do. Admittedly this is why I secretly wanted more horny threads because it gave me a chance to read and interact with comrades that were open to talk about this. Still know they are not a good idea since we have younger comrades here and the phrase the children are watching kills the mood hard. A sex comm might be good for asking questions kind of like that radio show loveline if you heard of it, except no mega lib or mega chud hosts.
The best advice I heard for casual sex in our situation is to head to fetlife and find women into taking virgins, read this advice from some dom ladies on a subreddit years ago. Another comrade hereinrobothell gave me the advice to try online munchies so as to learn how to vibe there. Also remember to set boundaries and go at your own pace, talk and communicate.
Sorry if mess but kept writing and rewriting. Good luck comrade.
I think you're probably right that I need feedback from women specifically, and I can see how my original post makes it sound like I'm talking about women like they're a separate species, as much as I may have tried to avoid it. I do interact with people, so of course there are women in my life (e.g. friends, classmates, coworkers, family members) that I'm capable of having conversations with about other topics. I've just never really had an honest discussion about my dating life or my sexuality with anyone in my life of any gender (well, maybe once with a therapist) and people don't usually ask me about it.
It would probably be a good idea for me to cultivate friendships with the women I already know (partly to "humanize" them, but also because, frankly, it would be a good idea for me to cultivate any of my friendships at all) and to read stuff written by women about love and attraction and sex.
Didn't mean to call you out or anything but glad I could help in some way. For me I guess this is the phrase of knowing something vs understanding something. Like we know women are human but to understand it takes work. Not our fault I'd say because of how alienating living under capitalism is but still something we have to work through. As long as we have our minds open, discard any preconceived notions, listen and learn we gonna be fine. I wish you luck and hope you wish me luck too comrade. Thank you for talking about this and reaching out, it can be scary being vulnerable but growth doesn't come easy.
I mean im not tryna be antagonistic but i sorta disagree with most of it, especially the fetlife thing. One, that woman is hard to find if she even exists and two shes probably swarmed with dudes. and three, lets face it, shes probably not that much of a catch herself.
And the advice your sister gave to you is great but for the most part getting dating advice from straight women isnt gonna help much, aside from telling you the already obvious. wouldnt ask a fish how to teach you to catch a fish and all that (for lack of a better expression)
Speculating the first part of yes someone could be swarmed with people but then comes the issue of how many are actually worth being around. By worth being around how many are actually pleasant, how well they vibe with each other, etc
Would say it's important to ask and listen because well we really don't wanna end up making assumptions on behalf of other people. Our knowledge is limited by our own perspective so asking for help or advice is necessary to understand.
You've written a lot of good stuff here, and I feel very much the same way about modern relationships. Though being in a similar situation as you I don't have much advice lol. I can to say that "Just spend time around other people and don’t be an asshole and eventually someone will fuck you" does actually seem to have some promise. I haven't fucked anyone yet due to what I'll call "extenuating circumstances" (specific social/mental situations) but I've still noticed some women are attracted to that sort of "paternal vibe". Not really sure how to describe it not like patronizing but just genuinely supportive and caring of others. It's just a hit or miss chemistry thing that develops over time though, not really a "technique" I'd say.
right-wingers have correctly noticed that there is a problem that center-liberals have ignored
This is something I've been thinking about lot, I don't believe there is any other period of human history that has so many chroniclly lonely people. "Incel" is a popular term now, people use it on the street. It's a modern cultural phenomenon in whole western world, I'd hazard there's millions of young "incels" in North America/Europe alone. Until recently it wasn't possible for so many people to be condemned to extended social isolation, before capitalism invented suburban hellscapes most people had to sleep 5 to a room and live with the same few hundred people your whole life. Without electricity or internet for entertainment fucking was probably just unavoidable and you also had arranged marriages and such that forced people together whether they like it or not.
But capitalism has been steadily corroding all social bonds. Now I notice a significant amount of dating advice, the toxic shit in particular, is all about making yourself look like you're some capitalist hustler: own expensive shit, be "alpha", not just believing you are better than other people but proving it. That's not how all people get into relationships of course, but that's how popular dating is supposed to go I guess. Everyone is supposed to be flexing. Women too, they just gave different ways they are supposed to flex.
Not everyone can or wants to act like that, and now, especially with corona, that may mean people may not ever talk to another in weeks, months...hell even years. Having a romantic partner is ingrained in western capitalist society at so many levels, but more and more people do not ever find one. It puts such mental strain on a person, especially a young person with a fragile mind. You know East Asia has a similar "incel" phenomenon, especially Japan, one of the most hypercapitalist societies in history.
There are young men in Japan who literally lock themselves in their rooms and never come out again to talk to anyone, not even their own family, because they feel like they have failed in life by failing to get married, a promotion, etc... and they feel to ashamed to ever come out. It's so sad that so many people around the world feel not just lonely and isolated but hated by the rest of world, by the "chads and staceys" or whatever. There's a common theme here that I think points to capitalism just again rotting away the sanctity of human life and interpersonal relationships. Marketizing romance with apps and media and trends and on and so forth.
I don't know if that made any sense it's still just an idea I had floating around in my head but maybe you will find it helpful.
Girl here, who used to lurk on the old reddit site and now lurks here, but thought she might as well make an account to give some advice. Obviously all IMHO.
If you're just after sex, then like one of the other commenters said, you could try finding a woman with a fetish for virgins. I also don't know about your background, but you might have hang-ups about sex which are holding you back. From personal experience, I was raised in a pretty religious family, and had a mother who told me not to have sex until I was married. I didn't have sex until I was 22 on a one night stand while backpacking . It was honestly a really good experience for me to wake up the next morning and feel EXACTLY the same as I did before. The sex was good, but it wasn't some kind of soul-altering experience where I suddenly felt like a true adult and formed an instantaneous bond with my partner. Once I got home I had heaps more confidence when dating because I'd already got the first time 'over-and-done-with'.
If you're wanting to get into a romantic relationship, there's not any one way to go about it. All the relationships I know developed in different ways. I met my boyfriend when we were living in the same apartment block but other friends have met long-term partners online, at work, while waiting for a bus etc. One thing that all relationships need to develop though is time spent alone with each other. Another poster here suggested that you could try Bumble/Tinder and I'd really recommend that to get used to meeting up with women one-on-one (from my understanding you've never really done this) . In my experience these apps aren't great for finding a serious relationship (or even just casual sex) but if you want to get some practise going on dates they're a great place to start.
You said that you've never been on a date before, and you also think that you might not necessarily pick up on social cues or have trouble expressing your feelings. Here's what I suggest you do:
Make a profile on Bumble/Tinder. To me Bumble seems less sleazy. Chose photos that showcase your best self, but don't give at totally inaccurate impression. Try to include some of you doing hobbies/with your mates/with your pets. Talking to guys I've heard it can be disheartening to constantly message women and not hear back, but it's a numbers game, just keep persisting.
Once you've matched with a woman you can get talking about your hobbies, movies you've seen recently etc.
If you've had a conversation back and forth for at least ~15 exchanges, just ask her if she wants to meet up. Don't make a vague suggestion: 'want to meet up sometime?' Suggest a specific time and activity: 'want to go and check out the Christmas markets this Saturday afternoon?' If the woman declines, and doesn't suggest an alternative time or activity, you can suggest another activity/time, but if she declines twice she's not interested.
Meeting up for a meal/coffee might seem like the natural choice, but I'd suggest doing an activity: hiking, mini-golf, bowling, visiting a museum, ice-skating etc. I'm always more impressed when a guy makes a bit of an effort to chose something. There's also the added advantage of having something to do, which helps if you think you might be awkward or run out of conversation topics while at a restaurant/cafe. This can be a big problem with online dating if you've already chatted and asked a lot of the small-talk questions while texting. Obviously, suggest something in a public place where there's plenty of people around if you're meeting her for the first time! And nothing that lasts more than 2 hours or is expensive.
Before the date, do all the regular stuff: have a shower, brush your hair and teeth etc. Wear clothing that's suitable for whatever you have planned and is in a flattering style/colour etc. Make sure you have each other's phone numbers and a clear plan of when and where you'll meet up.
During a first date try to keep it casual and just enjoy the activity. If you get on really well you can always go and get something to eat or drink afterwards, but if the date doesn't work out the end of the activity makes a clear ending point for the date.
There seems to be a lot of advice out there on how long you should wait before getting in touch with a date. I reckon a lot of it's bullshit, just text the next day saying 'Thanks for a great time yesterday'.
I think one of the advantages of dating when you're 29 is people are going to be more mature and honest than when they were younger. If a woman's not interested she's likely to tell you.
No matter what, you've been on a date! It's the first step to getting into a relationship with a woman and if you've done it once you can do it again!
Finally, wanted to add that you seem like a really decent guy; you don't want to use women and care about their feelings. I wouldn't be too worried about social skills if you've been able to ask women you are interested in out on dates, have them reject you, and still maintain friendships with them.
TL;DR if you're just after sex , look for women who have a fetish for virgins. If you're wanting more 'practise' at dating/relationships sign up for an app and go on some low-key dates/outings with women.
"Every 30 seconds, a woman has sex with a virgin. She's out of control and must be stopped."
Thanks for the response. I have had one-on-one meetups with female friends. I actually went out just the other day -- I'm giving away some of my books, and one of my friends wanted one, so we met in person at a nearby park so I could give her the book and we went for a short walk in the park -- but never something I would call a Date with a capital D.
Which seems like an important distinction, in the sense that, if my intention is to pursue a relationship, it's important for me to communicate that. But it is somewhat helpful to consider that asking to go out and do something with another person is not completely outside the realm of my experience.
It's funny -- I'm bisexual (that's not the funny part) and I tried signing up for Tinder a while ago with the idea of dating men and women. I found myself matching with a lot of men, and thinking "Oh my god, how do I talk to men?" even though I am one.
look for women who have a fetish for virgins
lmfao yeah and im gonna go unicorn hunting later
The right is using heterosexual male sexual frustration to disseminate misogynistic and reactionary ideology and the left is not handling it very well.
I'll be talking a lot about heterosexual men here. This is not to suggest that they have it worse than women or LGBT people or that they are the only ones affected by these issues, it is simply because I don't feel confident to speak of them as I am guy with next to no LGBT experience.
Incel and PUA culture is a steaming hot pile of garbage. We're really good at condemning and criticising it but not very good at providing a better alternative.
Sex is really crucial to humans so if you make a credible promise of remedying sexual frustration people are going to listen to you and be open to the ideas you base your advice on. An ecosystem of feminist and socialist dating advice for heterosexual men would not only help them individually and prevent them from falling into the claws of misogynistic reactionaries. It would also by itself make feminist and socialist ideas more readily available.
Sexual frustration is a real issue that is making lot of people feel genuinely miserable. Capitalism is making things worse by alienating people from each other, by making unrealistic demands of people regarding material consumption and beauty standards and by fostering a competitive spirit that leaves everyone anxious and feeling insufficient.
I think openness is really important here. We should normalise having sexual and relationship problems, keep from using "virgin" as an insult etc. These kind of problems are the kind that just grows worse and worse when you keep them to yourself.
Fighting heteronormativity and patriarchal gender norms will also help reduce the stress and anxiety people experience regarding sex and relationships. Fear of being rejected and ridiculed for not performing your gender the right way is keeping a lot of people back.
I have to be honest: I personally find "Get more experience!" too vague to be useful advice. Experience doing what, and how? The answer may be obvious to you and maybe you think I'm dense for asking, but that's kind of my point with this whole post -- it's not obvious to me, and it can be very frustrating to watch the majority of people seemingly effortlessly do something that seems impossible to me.
Beyond that, I try to be honest and straightforward about my romantic feelings, and I think that if the other person is reasonably mature then they’ll like that.
This is specific enough to be potentially helpful. I will say that, in my adult life, I've told two people that I was attracted to them. In both cases, it didn't lead to a relationship, but I am still on good terms with both people and neither of them seemed creeped out or offended about my bringing it up, which seems like a sign that I am not completely hopeless.
I appreciate your taking the time to respond, and I hope that my response to your first comment comes across as an honest expression of my response rather than as an attack.
Yes, more or less once you feel attracted to someone you can a) very clearly ask them out on a date (use that word explicitly - “was wondering if you would want to go on a date some time?”) and in the positive case, they’ll say yes (unfortunately, <10% of the time, due to essentially bad luck) and b) in the negative case, you have to give them a wide berth and as you found, the platonic relationship can even be salvageable if you want (I personally don’t though, I often find).
Easier said than done, of course. I’ve only managed it myself in one occasion I can recall... on other occasions I was cowardly and did not ask them in a way that was clear, which made it more confusing and ultimately painful, which is why I took the below tactic:
Or honestly, just use Bumble or even Tinder or some app where the premise is romantic interest and that’s understood from the getgo without having to go out on a limb and ask more or less if they’re willing for that.
It is unfortunately a numbers game; it is inevitably painful because it’s personal; but it gets easier with time, I’d like to believe at least.
Or honestly, just use Bumble or even Tinder or some app where the premise is romantic interest and that’s understood from the getgo without having to go out on a limb and ask more or less if they’re willing for that.
These apps have a reputation as being for hookups, but I primarily found women who were either bored, unsure what they're looking for, and/or primarily looking for validation by being approached. Like all social media, the platforms encourage and reward behavior that isn't exactly normal or healthy. This is just my personal observation based on my own age/location/orientation/appearance/etc., but the occasional data I've seen more or less supports this I believe.
If you're looking for a relationship, or even hookups, these apps are pretty disfunctional, and likely frustrating. But if you're looking for conversation and practice with getting to know people and getting over any anxiety and maybe a few idle coffee dates, I think they could be useful, as long as you keep those expectations in mind.
Hm. I met my partner and I have heard many stories of other people doing so also on Tinder (less so Bumble).
but I primarily found women who were either bored, unsure what they’re looking for, and/or primarily looking for validation by being approached.
This I found to be true but not necessarily problematically so (unhealthy). It is certainly abnormal from a pre-app world standpoint but that is not an inherent issue as far as I can see*. Was hoping you could expand on this a bit?
And these factors don’t seem to be at all mutually exclusive from what one might consider to be a good long term relationship (if OP wants that, which he may not even at this point).
The quote that implies your disagreement:
Like all social media, the platforms encourage and reward behavior that isn’t exactly normal or healthy.
* I am somewhat anprim to be fair but that is a different and holistic topic
Thank for understanding. I'm finding your elaboration gives me more to chew on.
There is no singular way to begin or sustain a romantic relationship. Some romantic relationships might start with spontaneous sex, and others will begin with a years long friendship that culminates in a chaste marriage late in life. Both follow radically different scripts, and the people participating in one probably wouldn’t have been able to participate in the other.
This is interesting to me, especially that last sentence -- it makes sense that there wouldn't be just one script for how a relationship develops.
I've been thinking about this a little bit. My parents met through a local musical theatre group. My older brothers met their wives through hobbies and work. The two people I mentioned who I mentioned my attraction to but where it didn't go anywhere are both people I met in groups based around an interest (a choir and a book club -- and some of the couples I know met each other in the exact same groups). It seems probable to me that, when I meet someone (I'll be optimistic and say "when"), it will be because of our mutual interest in some activity/hobby/interest. Of course, it's a bit tricky to meet with groups of people during the pandemic.
But if you have any friendships
Ah, well, THERE'S my problem!
Okay, I'm being a bit facetious. I have people who could reasonably be described as friends, but I don't really have any very close friendships. And I get the sense that the skills it takes to be in a relationship have a lot of overlap with the skills it takes to maintain a close friendship. Maintaining my current friendships seems like a potentially good intermediate goal i.e. a bit of a challenge for me, but without feeling unattainable in the way that getting into a romantic relationship currently feels unattainable. Plus, it's something I think I'd find easier to do during the pandemic than pursuing a romantic relationship right away.
Repeat, keep communicating your feelings (“today was so fun” “I love being with you” “you looked so cute today.”) and see where things go.
This, in particular, has always been a challenge for me. It hasn't been until the last few years that I've even started saying "I love you" to my parents at the end of my phone calls with them. It's not that I don't love them, it's just that verbally expressing affection is a habit I need to develop more.
I'm in the same shoes except that every time i tried to "improve my appearance" i started to feel bad about myself so i stopped.
This is a message of a more personal nature. I'll write another one about the social and political situation concerning heterosexual male dating advice.
I completely understand your situation. I was in the same place that you are until I was 25 and met my current GF. Our oldest child just celebrated her 10th birthday so for what it is worth you still have hope.
Being a teenager and young adult who didn't get the thing about dating was really, really horrible. I have a personality disorder that makes me excessively anxious about social relations that was undiagnosed until a year ago. Growing up I felt that everything about relating to other people was hard and scary and frustrating and I didn't know why I just couldn't be normal. It sucked being too afraid to ask questions in class and to have very few friends and to constantly being afraid what other people might think about you. The thing that stung the most was the lack of sex and romance. It confirmed my lack of self-worth and made relating to others in a romantic or sexual context even more difficult.
I figured out the term "involuntary celibacy" on my own and googled it. Back then it wasn't exclusively a term for right-wing misogyny and self-hate and I found an "incel" forum where I became part of the community. It was an inclusive and nice community where misogyny and homophobia was not tolerated at all. In hindsight having someone who could relate to my situation and who I could vent to really helped me and made me feel less weird and alone.
I also tried reading some PUA books but they didn't do anything for me. They're horribly superficial and all the advice was variations of "have the self-esteem to do this or that thing". This was useless to me as my problem was a lack of self-esteem.
What helped me was that I gradually opened up to myself about what I wanted emotionally and sexually. Instead of repeating internalised heteronormative guilt I gradually accepted my bisexuality and my crossdressing fetish. I started making dating profiles requesting that. At first just to toy with the idea but eventually in earnest and suddenly I met e woman who is now my GF. There were no embarrassing sexual secrets as I had sort of stumbled into being open about it in the first place.
I'm doing a lot better today than back then. I still have serious issues with self-esteem and socialising and if for some reason I were to no longer be with my GF being on the dating market again would be stressful and frustrating for me. I'm not totally cured but I feel a lot better.
My advice to anyone in your situation would be:
- Seek professional help for any mental health issues. If you have trouble with sexual and romantic relationships chances are that you have trouble relating to people and to yourself in general. If you are 29 and haven't yet had any success your issues are not trivial. I didn't get help until recently and it costed me years and years of pain and loneliness. Had I gone to therapy when I was 15 instead of when I was 35 my life would have been so better.
- Be yourself. Being yourself is not something you just do. It takes hard work but it is well worth it to look inwards and getting to know yourself, accept yourself and even to love yourself.
- Be honest about what you want even though it might scare off someone. You don't have to be liked by everyone, having one other person who loves you for what you really are is enough.
Thanks for your response.
Seek professional help for any mental health issues. If you have trouble with sexual and romantic relationships chances are that you have trouble relating to people and to yourself in general. If you are 29 and haven’t yet had any success your issues are not trivial. I didn’t get help until recently and it costed me years and years of pain and loneliness. Had I gone to therapy when I was 15 instead of when I was 35 my life would have been so better.
I think you're right that I have trouble relating to people in general and my problems are not trivial, and that scares me. Worrying about what "could have been" seems like a recipe for depression and I'd rather avoid that.
I've been to therapists and counselors, and I've even specifically brought up that I have trouble relating to people, but I don't think I've gotten much value out of it. At no point has any professional I've talked to suggested "Based on what you've told me, maybe you have this specific, well-known disorder that we can actually do something about?" without me explicitly mentioning a disorder by name -- e.g. when I mentioned to a doctor that I thought I might have depression, it didn't take long to get a prescription for sertraline, but until I actually used the word "depression" by name, I was just seeing a counselor on a regular basis and getting nowhere. (In fact, the first time I said to a counselor that I thought I might have depression, they said something along the lines of "It sounds like you're self-diagnosing with depression. How does that make you feel?" which I didn't find useful.) Maybe I've just been unlucky, or maybe I have unrealistic expectations, but it's frustrating to constantly feel like I have to take the initiative in explaining to professionals how to do their jobs.
At least, that was my experience. If you have any advice on how to productively talk to a therapist, I am open to hearing it.
It sounds like you've had some really bad therapists. Suggesting diagnoses should not be the job of the patient.
I've had some bad experiences as well, like the general practitioner who diagnosed me with depression and social anxiety based on a single consultation, signed me up to some useless group therapy where people with all kinds of mental disorders were lumped together with almost no guidance from the group leaders and kept prescribing me the same dose of sertraline for years and years without ever bothering to check whether it was working.
I'm better off today. Now I have a real psychiatrist who actually makes sense and who can explain the mechanisms that makes me the way I do. She diagnosed me with avoidant personality disorder and ADHD and gave me a prescription for Ritalin. I'm also having good group therapy now (although it is temporarily shut down because of the pandemic) where we actually are getting somewhere.
For various reasons I never learned how to properly connect to my own emotions or how to read other people's emotions. A lot of the therapy I'm having is about becoming aware of my own emotions and analysing why other people react the way they do without immediately concluding that it is because they hate me. It's slow but it works.
Based on my own experience I would recommend seeing a proper psychiatrist.
Random question: Are there any books/resources you've found helpful in dealing with Avoidant Personality Disorder? I read a lot of books and sometimes I find that books written by professionals about a specific disorder are helpful to me (for example, I've never been diagnosed with ADHD, but I found that books about ADHD had advice that was useful for my own attention problems).
Ultimately, I would love to see an actual psychiatrist. I suspect it will be very expensive and hard to find a good one, though, even here in Canada. Which isn't to say I won't do it, but it is a very real obstacle.
Here's an older comment of mine about dating (with some stuff added to explain further, as you want), hope it helps a little bit. This is not my first language btw, sorry for any mistakes.
TL;DR Work on yourself first. Acknowledge the other person is a human being with her own life, projects and interests and try to know a bit of her world, while showing some of your own world for her. Pay attention to how spending time with her makes you feel, and notice if it's true or if you're just needy.
What I used to do for dates was the same thing I did for making friends. First the hardest part, you must have your own personality and life going on outside of relationships. That is, have very clearly on your mind what activities make you happy, what places make you feel good when you're there, what you believe in, etc (so, don't be terminally online - learn some art/craft, grab a book about some interest of yours, spend an hour just being somewhere). Then, all you need to do is have some small talk to break the ice (something situational that might be catching the attention of both of you - eg. "These cinnamon rolls are so good, aren't they?" Try not to be negative here, plus be truthful) and then, depending on how they respond, if opening or closing themselves for conversation, you can talk something more and figure out common interests, then ask them to join you in something you like doing and think they’ll like, too. Then things could go either way; if you want to, try some light flirting and see if they respond, or just enjoy your time together, or notice if you don’t.
This last part is very important. I was just like you, although I got better at this a bit younger. It is very easy to want to give yourself completely to the first person that shows any affection for you, and ignore some stuff about them because you just need that feeling of being wanted. One valuable thing I learned was to simply pay attention to my gut when I get the feeling that me and that person just don't click at all. Do not ignore that, nobody is supposed to mach with everyone. Don't be ashamed or afraid of not taking things further, romantic-wise.
Here's how it happened with me and my gf: I was walking towards the bus and noticed this cute girl walking besides me, so I asked "are you taking the bus too?" She said no, her car was just parked next to it, and offered me a ride. In her car, we talked about movies (it was oscar season) and I invited her to see one with me.
Now, a month before that I tried to date another girl. We talked for a bit and I said something like "hey, I'm going to [place] on friday to get some coffee and maybe take a look at some books, would you like to join me?" We spent some time together, had some laughs, talked a lot, and she seemed really interested in me. The thing is, I noticed I did NOT enjoy being around her very much. I couldn't imagine being with that person for a lot of time. No matter how pretty a girl you're on a date with is, no matter how much she seems to like you, you have to pay attention to your own feelings, you have to think if this thing is going to be good for you. Try to notice if you really like that person or if you're just needy, this is very important and will save you and her a lot of trouble. Of course, if it's a one night stand situation, this isn't needed.
A One-Step guide to getting any woman:
Log off chapo.chat :CommiePOGGERS:
I'm kind of fascinated with sexual selection from the academic perspective so I listened to a lot of podcasts about it.
I think one of the best resources for this is Scott Barry Kaufman. He has a PhD in cognitive psychology. His article The Myth of the Alpha Male is a good starting point. He has a podcast called The Psychology Podcast which is pretty good and sometimes covers these topics. Mating Matters is another interesting podcast, hosted by Dr. Wendy Walsh. Therapist Esther Perel and anthropologist Helen Fisher are also some good researchers on these topics. All of these people have written books on these topics and appeared on many podcasts (or host their own) so I think that's a good place to start.
starting strength or stronglifts is a pretty good idea if you don’t already lift
