Permanently Deleted
[zizek voice] If a capitalist offers you money, take the money. The next day, kill him and when he says "but I gave you the money" then you say "YOU IDIOT! Why did you give me the money?"
Our participation in the system doesn't change it's effects in any meaningful way, so I think it has to be seen as morally neutral. Maybe if you're an inheritor to a massive fortune or something then you have to consider the downstream effects of any investing you do, by my 4 grand stock account isn't going to do much for anyone except myself.
It shouldn't exist in a more ideal socialist economy, but it exists right now. I don't blame working class people who can invest some of their paychecks to feel financially secure.
Once we get our dictatorship of the proletariat tho, that's being transitioned to a democratically planned economy with a rock solid social safety net.
It's no more or less ethically wrong than putting the money in a bank account. Money in a bank will be lent as capital investment, for which service the capitalist will pay interest to the bank. Maybe that individual capitalist will fail. Maybe they succeed beyond their wildest dreams. On average they will succeed at least well enough to cover the interest. Some of that interest will end up in your account.
There is no individual escape from capitalism, except for ways that leave you isolated and politically impotent.
A socialist alternative might be to keep your savings in a socialist credit union that only lends to worker co-ops. I do not think such a thing exists in the United States, at least. (There are credit unions that make most of their money on personal loans/mortgages/credit cards, though. Up to you if that makes a meaningful difference.)
i don't think it's any more ethically wrong than like buying a chocolate bar, coffee, clothes etc that has probably been made with terrible labour conditions and exploitation, i think it comes down to the whole 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' thing again. the amount of money we are gonna be 'investing' isn't gonna be moving markets or make any material difference to anything other than our own bank accounts. we have no choice for now but to survive and attempt to maximize our happiness under capitalism so we may as well use whatever tools are available to do so, as long as we don't exploit others.
the rich are able to create money out of thin air while we are forced to sell our labour, now the barriers to entry to the stock market have been removed with apps etc the riff raff have been let into the casino, and if you can effectively make a little something for yourself i don't see how it's a problem, as long as it doesn't influence your ideology to start thinking 'wtf i love capitalism now'
i have made a bit of money investing in the stock market but it doesn't mean i don't simultaneously think the stock market is complete bullshit and should be abolished entirely
Yes investing is bad. While it is ethically bad so are most other things under capitalism. It was exploitation that allowed Engels to fund Marx who in turn wrote Kapital. That exploitation is wrong but it was what enabled a plethora of Socialist literature to be written. So as long as the money is being used in service of establishing communism then I would argue that it's net neutral or positive. Not comprehensive and I'm willing to hear other takes, but this would be my general view on the subject.
i live in capitalism, i need to save up for college somehow
Engels thought investing in stocks was acceptable because "the stock exchange simply adjusts the distribution of surplus value already stolen from the workers".
Personally I do. And yes I understand that it's unavoidable, but I still don't like it.
IF, and only if, someone could demonstrate that stonks could be utilized towards a socialist end, then perhaps I would support the means.
My bourgeois grandfather kept trying to get me into investing for a while, talking about how water will be a valuable commodity in the future. So im pretty grossed out by it and ive decided im gonna avoid it entirely.
