- cross-posted to:
- chapotraphouse
- cross-posted to:
- chapotraphouse
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"Oh, so you support the warsaw uprising???? They're terrorists!! What about all those innocent german families killed!"
So much colonizer seething this week.
Obligatory reminder that Germans were killing 100 random Poles for every killed German even before the Uprising. Yet that didn't stopped the active partisans, even those moderate and currently acceptable ones of AK.
Even the Germans weren't stupid enough to live five hundred feet from the extermination camp walls.
The lib take on Israel/Palestine and Ukraine/Donbas is just
Show
Highly recommend reading the Red Deal, which is written by Indigenous socialists on what they think decolonisation should entail.
I've got a copy! @redtea and I talked about it a bit when we were trying a book club.
I thought it had some good points, but I was disappointed in some bits.
It's probably not a big deal, but I felt like it could've been more radical?
They spent some time lionizing the Green New Deal as a good thing, time talking about what's wrong with the current system (good), how those problems can be addressed (good), but not how we get from now to being able to address the problems.
Like, maybe I need some self-crit as a violence fetishist or something, but I don't think they really addressed the necessity for armed struggle.
I guess the book's not really meant for that, and maybe it's meant more as an introduction to decolonization for people who'd be turned off by the idea of armed struggle.
Idk, I read "Revolution in the Revolution" right before, so that probably colors my perception of it. Maybe I need a re-read!
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t meant to be too radical. It was meant to draw sunshine and DSA types, and then the further reading it references are supposed to be more radical. That’s what they said on Marx Madness anyway. The further reading being ‘red nation rising,’ ‘our history is the future,’ and the one Bolivian decolonization agreement they mention.
That’s just the stuff in the red deal. I found the Bolivian thing referenced btw. Some more stuff recommended on that podcast was ‘socialism or extinction,’ ‘fresh banana leaves’ (I have a copy), ‘indigenous Paleolithic of the western hemisphere (?),’ and ‘Custer died for your sins’ (classic, but a bit outdated, and I’ve heard criticism of it) among others.
I guess I just didn't think of the things it referenced as an answer to my issues - I probably should've read more closely!
Excuse me decolonization is me listening to a 2 hour video essay and buying a handwoven tote bag from a poc-owned small business. Colonized people should never engage in anything that would meaningful improve their life because that would make me feel bad.
Killing civilians is just wrong on many aspects: • Often civilians have no choice on the handling of political affairs (unless they directly voted for the fucking war in a community council; and, mind you, 1853 USA wasn't a direct democracy, nor Israel is today. Today's governments are further from a democracy than ever, considering) • Waste of resources, they should be organizing to fight actual forces; this will just radicalize both parties and it won't bring a peaceful resolution
Should we just kill immigrants that come in our countries then? Or should we make fucking segregation part 2? Or maybe don't you think that promoting is just the best way to get to live like decent humans together independently from ethnicity? No, let's just behave like those nationalist monkeys of the 19th century
"We just sorta accidentally moved into Native American land after our soldiers killed most of them and drove them West." - A completely innocent colonial civilian.
Killing civilians is just wrong on many aspects: • Often civilians have no choice on the handling of political affairs.
Do you agree that the bombing of Hiroshima was a war crime?
Speaking as a person of Latino heritage, with a bit of Indigenous blood, I'd rather limit civilian casualties to a minimum. I agree with your overall sentiment, that civilians aren't innocent in settler-colonial projects, and are part of the problem, and play an unfortunate part in colonialist violence against oppressed peoples, and I wouldn't tell oppressed peoples how to wage armed resistance if they are achieving good results.
I'm just saying that as much as I hate many bourgeois Amerikkkrakers, I wouldn't want them to be killed unless absolutely necessary. Though the fog of conflict often breeds confusion and tragedy.
I agree with this. I'm not advocating killing anyone without reason. I was just making the general point about their not really being innocence in settler colonial projects
Thank you, I'm glad you agree. I understand/hope that most of us are just meme-ing when we say that crakkkers aren't innocent, which while very true, sometimes I get a little uncomfortable that some people might use this as an excuse to attack or shoot random white people for no reason and claim its colonial resistance.
I'm no expert in USA colonial history, but just because your state deports you in a new land because of your criminal past actions, or because you were born from the wrong vagina shouldn't get you killed. Why kill settlers when you can go for the root of the problem, the state and the economic forces which are making it in a monster? We colonialize because of capitalism, and forces which just don't care for human right. I think that in a conscious and a actual, non-tainted by capitalism, and people-led governament, this shit wouldn't happen. The Israeli gov. chooses to handle the situation in a violent way, and it tries to radicalize the conflict; not the people, people just want to live. We can't talk of democracy today because we're just so far off from the people's desire.
Why kill settlers when you can go for the root of the problem,
well the settlers are in my house and won't leave, for one.
i'm sure if hamas thought targeted assassinations of prominent ideological zionists was possible and practical they'd do that instead. they're not stupid.
They tried the targeted assassinations thing, and it didn't work
but you see they have to do everything right or I can't support them
The point i was making is that there is no innocence in a settler colonial project. Like in the image above, the settlers aren't innocent just because they aren't wearing a uniform. Settlers encroachment leads to deaths of "civilian" indigenous peoples too. And of course, the settlements could only exist because "civilian" indigenous people were killed and driven off to make way for them.
I get what you're saying about real democracy for the people not existing under capitalism, and that capitalism is the root cause of all this. No arguement there. And to be fair i understand the sentiment of not wanting people to get killed. I don't want people to get killed either.
The way i see it though when it comes to de-colonialization efforts is that indigenous peoples "didn't choose armed struggle as the best path. Its the path oppressors imposed on people." - Fidel Castro
Just about every Israeli citizen has been given military training and has been in the IDF at some point. With this knowledge, how in the world should Hamas and the Palestinian people view the Israeli citizenry. They have all directly participated in the apartheid state or are prepared to.
This is not me making a moral judgement. But any rational person that attempts for one second to see this conflict from the point of view of Palestine should come to the same conclusion? How are Palestinians who have been caged for almost two decades and driven to the point of war via desperation supposed to make the distinction between pacifists and dormant soldiers?
Should we just kill immigrants that come in our countries then?
How about we stop killing and abusing them first.
You didn't get the metaphor, or whatever it is. I think segregating Palestinian out of their territory it's just Nazi shit. But man killing civilians which hardly take part in the government is a tribal behaviour. Both parties are wrong by many accounts, they should (but so we do) overcome national states and go for a state which is not driven by a ethnic/national sentiment; nobody owns that land, they should just share that land without persecution, just like I'm willing to share my country's soil and right to vote with immigrants which want to participate in my democratic state.
The reason the Palestinians don’t have their homes anymore is because “””civilians””” live there now
There are no innocent settler colonists
Zionist settlers aren’t simple immigrants. The government was established on land arbitrarily designated by Britain. It is a colonial state. Only European Jews are allowed to live in Israel. This state kills Palestinians everyday and almost everyone does military service in ethnic cleansing. These people didn’t just move there like anyone else, they literally steal Palestinian homes for themselves. People still have keys and deeds to that stolen land. When you’re under a genocidal apartheid state it is your legal and moral right to fight back using any means necessary.
before it was 
