I mean … one of these is a violent conflict where mostly civilians are being hit, on both sides. The other is a country defending itself from an invasion. One of these is really complicated and I’m pretty sure violence won’t solve much. The other one really isn’t complicated on the same level and violence (defense) is pretty much the only choice.
Ukraine isn’t “defending itself from an invasion”. Ukraine’s democratically elected government was overthrown by a US sponsored military coup. The coup was carried out by Nazis that want to ethnically cleanse ethnic Russians from the territory. The Russian majority areas voted overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine and called on Russia to protect them when the Ukrainian coup government invaded them.
Russia’s goal is not “conquering all of Ukraine”. Russia’s military objectives are
Halting the ongoing killing of ethnic Russians in the Donbas Republics by the Ukrainian nazi coup government.
Disabling the nazi coup government’s military capacity to act as a staging ground for US attacks on Russia.
Russia has continually offered ceasefires with the only substantive condition being “stop killing Russians”, and the nazi coup government has been unwilling to negotiate because the US has told them they’re not permitted to stop killing.
Sources on one particular point I recently gathered, which is the peace deals being offered by the Russian side: https://archive.ph/9BVwS https://archive.ph/LrOtO
Yes. The Palestinians are defending themselves from an invasion by another country while Ukraine and Russia will have to find a way to peacefully live next to each other.
Unfortunately isn't that simple. If you would like to know more about the Ukrain conflict than please read "How the West Brought War to Ukraine: Understanding How U.S. and NATO Policies Led to Crisis, War, and the Risk of Nuclear Catastrophe" by Benjamin Abelow. It gives a far more balanced en factual analysis about the conflict.
Maybe how the conflict itself came to be isn’t simple (and calling anything simple that involves politics is probably always wrong). But the situation for the people in the Ukraine itself is pretty simple. They’re being attacked and they’re defending themselves.
You could say the same for the people in Palestine. They're forced to live under the boot of an oppressive apartheid regime and they're trying to free themselves. Pretty simple, right?
Apparently that’s an unpopular opinion, but to free themselves the ideal path forward is to conduct terrorist attacks on civilians? That certainly didn’t seem to improve things. And bombing civilians isn’t a great response either.
"Terrorism" is a meaningless word used to create a false separation between the small violence of the oppressed and the massive violence of the oppressor. The Nazis also called resistance fighters under their occupation "terroristic barbarians" and claimed this proved
that slaughtering them was justified.
Didn't Ukraine literally just launch missile/artillery attacks at random civilian targets in Donetsk... The same thing they've been doing for almost a decade?
You sound like you can't be fucked to even try understanding how settler-colonial ethnic cleansing and oppression justifies violence from the oppressed-- which scans, considering your considerably treat-obsessed techbro posting background.
I‘m not trying to argue for one side here and I’m certainly no expert in this conflict. All I’ve been saying is that violence is probably not going to be the solution here. Especially not the kind of violence that Israel is and has been putting Palestinians through.
Unfortunately, violence is a part of the solution at this point. Violence is the only thing that stopped the Nazis' genocidal conquest, it is what enabled the Black South Africans to take back their country from their colonizers. Palestinians tried diplomacy for years, and all it got them was softer genocide. They tried peaceful protest, and their were shot dead by the hundreds. Listen, I get it, violence is not pretty, but when you are dealing with fascists such as the Israelis, you end up not having much choice in the matter. The violence will stop when Israeli apartheid and genocide stops, and that likely won't stop until Israel as it exists is defeated, as fascism is baked deeply into its political structure.
Then what is the solution to a settler-colonial menace kicking in your door and demanding your land? Acquiescence and surrender? You'd see done to the Palestinians what Amerika has done to the Indigenous and Black populations in their country. Like I said.
What’s the solution that involves violence? It can be a wake up call to start a discussion, but I don’t see how things are going to be solved by it. But you tell me.
When your rip out your intruder by his roots, and cast him into the fire. You cannot really be sitting here trying to justify to someone whose lineage still bears the scars of Amerika's colonialism, that another people's settler-colonialism should go unopposed. You can't be. Expecting the settler to just fuck off back to wherever he came from is idealistic and patently impossible, as Amerika's example shows us; so what's left from the perspective of the colonized? Like I said.
Show
.
Don't bother replying; I don't 'debate' with settlers(and settlers aren't just Amerikan; it's a state of mind-- but cute 'gotcha!' attempt) and you've already shown your hand.
No way am I saying it should go unopposed. But I also don’t think "ripping out intruders and casting them into fire" is going to be a feasible solution in this case.
I don’t live in the US btw, if that’s what you mean by "Settler".
(Are we continuing the discussion by editing the comments now? ^^)
All you've done is complain about the solution the Palestinians have come up with in order to liberate themselves. If an occupying state is doing everything it can to eradicate you and your people what do you think their only choices are going to be?
People like this can't even bother to think outside the framework of simplistic logic of "violence bad". Like motherfucker if someone is trying to kill me I'm not just gonna let them... it's the same dumbfuck horseshoe theory of "violence against oppressors makes you just as bad as the oppressors"
Honestly, much love to the ancestors who paved our way; but I stand on the assertion that the likes of Dr. King and other non-violent activists fucked us all up giving the peckerwoods an 'idealistically higher' option to cudgel us with. I don't doubt they'd have come up with a way to get to the same old horseshoe horseshit "just as bad" nonsense-- but the deliberately-half taught beliefs of Dr. King and nem (because they NEVER teach about the whole "that dream I had, has in many ways become a nightmare" quote, or how he was getting closer in ideology to Ture, and Seale, and el-Shabazz before the government had him murdered) allows these crackers to feel so morally superior when they stare down their nose and hem and haw about how "absolutely evil directly fighting back against one's oppressor is".
That's a fact. I also know that a lot of our people tend to be religious and that plays a factor in the whole "nonviolent" tactic. I don't like the idea of the tragic martyr, that the oppressors will grow a heart and that's how we can "earn" our freedom. If they had a heart they wouldn't have dehumanized and enslaved us in the first place
I know you've already been banned, but just in case another lib stumbles across the thread I will reply anyway.
They've tried peaceful marches. Israel shot the peaceful protestors and the world largely ignored it. The fact you didn't know about them shows how easily ignored they were.
Which, I understand, is entirely what ghouls like you want, something easily ignored.
Isn't there ample evidence that Ukraine's been forcibly conscripting citizens, many of whom are ethnically Russian and don't feel that motivated to fight against, well, Russians?
Look at a demographic map. Ethnic Ukrainians are in the northwest, ethnic Russians are in the south and east. Guess where Russia is attacking?
Many people in Ukraine support Russia's invasion. Many more are indifferent and just want to steer clear of the war path; millions with consent were evacuated and placed in safety with shelter and food within Russia. On the other hand, Nazi blocking squads working for the Ukraine puppet government will violently, sometimes lethally stop any able bodied people trying to escape. They violently conscripted the men until they started running out and now have been targetting old men, older children and women (not dissimilar to the OG Nazi late war policy of Volksturm). That is to say, even many of the UKR soldiers don't want to fight against RUS. RUS's target is not the people of UKR, it is their Neo Nazi NATO puppet government.
By contrast, the target of Israel's violence is the Palestinian people themselves, they want genocide and expulsion of all non-Jews and Arabs.
Thanks for sharing the video, found that quite interesting. Again, I’m not an expert on that topic, but the fact that no one has yet found a working solution gives a hint that at the very least finding a solution for the situation there is complicated. Even if the situation itself wasn‘t.
I'll give you a hint as to why no one has "found a working solution" for both conflicts:
In the Ukraine, the US does not allow them to negotiate for peace, despite general agreement and eagerness from the Ukrainian government to compromise over the 5-point Russian proposal (on NATO membership, Donbass, Crimea, security enforcement, and bilingualism). This was confirmed by former German Chancellor Schroeder.
In Palestine, despite reaching several different agreements at different points in time, the settler government of "Israel" continuously broke these resolutions. The US has shielded the zionist government from any repercussions every time.
So yes, the solution is very simple, but it's hard to implement: death to America.
First situation sounds a lot more complicated tbh.
Also consider, for the most part Russians and Ukrainians are both Christian or secular. The intercultural "divide" is played up by both governments and the war makes it possible. Now look again at Palestine/Israel.
I mean … one of these is a violent conflict where mostly civilians are being hit, on both sides. The other is a country defending itself from an invasion. One of these is really complicated and I’m pretty sure violence won’t solve much. The other one really isn’t complicated on the same level and violence (defense) is pretty much the only choice.
Ukraine isn’t “defending itself from an invasion”. Ukraine’s democratically elected government was overthrown by a US sponsored military coup. The coup was carried out by Nazis that want to ethnically cleanse ethnic Russians from the territory. The Russian majority areas voted overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine and called on Russia to protect them when the Ukrainian coup government invaded them.
Russia’s goal is not “conquering all of Ukraine”. Russia’s military objectives are
Halting the ongoing killing of ethnic Russians in the Donbas Republics by the Ukrainian nazi coup government.
Disabling the nazi coup government’s military capacity to act as a staging ground for US attacks on Russia.
Russia has continually offered ceasefires with the only substantive condition being “stop killing Russians”, and the nazi coup government has been unwilling to negotiate because the US has told them they’re not permitted to stop killing.
Don't bother with him; that's a treat-obsessed techbro peckerwood
Well, that at least explains what community I ended up in. Thanks for the clarification.
willful ignorance is definitely preferable to learning anything! keep up the good work, friend
Might be the kindest words I’ve gotten in here so far, actually nice to hear the friend at the end
Translation:
Sources on one particular point I recently gathered, which is the peace deals being offered by the Russian side: https://archive.ph/9BVwS https://archive.ph/LrOtO
Came here just to get ridiculed so you could call us out for the ridicule. LOL typical
Yes. The Palestinians are defending themselves from an invasion by another country while Ukraine and Russia will have to find a way to peacefully live next to each other.
Unfortunately isn't that simple. If you would like to know more about the Ukrain conflict than please read "How the West Brought War to Ukraine: Understanding How U.S. and NATO Policies Led to Crisis, War, and the Risk of Nuclear Catastrophe" by Benjamin Abelow. It gives a far more balanced en factual analysis about the conflict.
I got a free pdf version here if you are interested.
https://annas-archive.org/md5/193c4b51b5aa5c3270c9163200f0d475
Maybe how the conflict itself came to be isn’t simple (and calling anything simple that involves politics is probably always wrong). But the situation for the people in the Ukraine itself is pretty simple. They’re being attacked and they’re defending themselves.
Yet another lib who thinks the conflict started in 2022, and thus has little understanding of it
You could say the same for the people in Palestine. They're forced to live under the boot of an oppressive apartheid regime and they're trying to free themselves. Pretty simple, right?
Apparently that’s an unpopular opinion, but to free themselves the ideal path forward is to conduct terrorist attacks on civilians? That certainly didn’t seem to improve things. And bombing civilians isn’t a great response either.
"Terrorism" is a meaningless word used to create a false separation between the small violence of the oppressed and the massive violence of the oppressor. The Nazis also called resistance fighters under their occupation "terroristic barbarians" and claimed this proved that slaughtering them was justified.
"I'm all for liberation, but not like that" headass
frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Didn't Ukraine literally just launch missile/artillery attacks at random civilian targets in Donetsk... The same thing they've been doing for almost a decade?
also they've been carrying out improvised drone bombings on Russian civilian centres like Moscow
You sound like you can't be fucked to even try understanding how settler-colonial ethnic cleansing and oppression justifies violence from the oppressed-- which scans, considering your considerably treat-obsessed techbro posting background.
basically, it all sounds like
I‘m not trying to argue for one side here and I’m certainly no expert in this conflict. All I’ve been saying is that violence is probably not going to be the solution here. Especially not the kind of violence that Israel is and has been putting Palestinians through.
Unfortunately, violence is a part of the solution at this point. Violence is the only thing that stopped the Nazis' genocidal conquest, it is what enabled the Black South Africans to take back their country from their colonizers. Palestinians tried diplomacy for years, and all it got them was softer genocide. They tried peaceful protest, and their were shot dead by the hundreds. Listen, I get it, violence is not pretty, but when you are dealing with fascists such as the Israelis, you end up not having much choice in the matter. The violence will stop when Israeli apartheid and genocide stops, and that likely won't stop until Israel as it exists is defeated, as fascism is baked deeply into its political structure.
Then what is the solution to a settler-colonial menace kicking in your door and demanding your land? Acquiescence and surrender? You'd see done to the Palestinians what Amerika has done to the Indigenous and Black populations in their country. Like I said.
What’s the solution that involves violence? It can be a wake up call to start a discussion, but I don’t see how things are going to be solved by it. But you tell me.
When your rip out your intruder by his roots, and cast him into the fire. You cannot really be sitting here trying to justify to someone whose lineage still bears the scars of Amerika's colonialism, that another people's settler-colonialism should go unopposed. You can't be. Expecting the settler to just fuck off back to wherever he came from is idealistic and patently impossible, as Amerika's example shows us; so what's left from the perspective of the colonized? Like I said.
Don't bother replying; I don't 'debate' with settlers(and settlers aren't just Amerikan; it's a state of mind-- but cute 'gotcha!' attempt) and you've already shown your hand.
No way am I saying it should go unopposed. But I also don’t think "ripping out intruders and casting them into fire" is going to be a feasible solution in this case.
I don’t live in the US btw, if that’s what you mean by "Settler".
(Are we continuing the discussion by editing the comments now? ^^)
All you've done is complain about the solution the Palestinians have come up with in order to liberate themselves. If an occupying state is doing everything it can to eradicate you and your people what do you think their only choices are going to be?
That peckerwood was still going off over on his instance even after his ban lmfao. Debate pervs gonna debate perv, especially the crackerish ones
People like this can't even bother to think outside the framework of simplistic logic of "violence bad". Like motherfucker if someone is trying to kill me I'm not just gonna let them... it's the same dumbfuck horseshoe theory of "violence against oppressors makes you just as bad as the oppressors"
Honestly, much love to the ancestors who paved our way; but I stand on the assertion that the likes of Dr. King and other non-violent activists fucked us all up giving the peckerwoods an 'idealistically higher' option to cudgel us with. I don't doubt they'd have come up with a way to get to the same old horseshoe horseshit "just as bad" nonsense-- but the deliberately-half taught beliefs of Dr. King and nem (because they NEVER teach about the whole "that dream I had, has in many ways become a nightmare" quote, or how he was getting closer in ideology to Ture, and Seale, and el-Shabazz before the government had him murdered) allows these crackers to feel so morally superior when they stare down their nose and hem and haw about how "absolutely evil directly fighting back against one's oppressor is".
That's a fact. I also know that a lot of our people tend to be religious and that plays a factor in the whole "nonviolent" tactic. I don't like the idea of the tragic martyr, that the oppressors will grow a heart and that's how we can "earn" our freedom. If they had a heart they wouldn't have dehumanized and enslaved us in the first place
deleted by creator
I know you've already been banned, but just in case another lib stumbles across the thread I will reply anyway.
They've tried peaceful marches. Israel shot the peaceful protestors and the world largely ignored it. The fact you didn't know about them shows how easily ignored they were.
Which, I understand, is entirely what ghouls like you want, something easily ignored.
Real talk these the same crackers that call NFAC a domestic terrorist org.
Isn't there ample evidence that Ukraine's been forcibly conscripting citizens, many of whom are ethnically Russian and don't feel that motivated to fight against, well, Russians?
Look at a demographic map. Ethnic Ukrainians are in the northwest, ethnic Russians are in the south and east. Guess where Russia is attacking?
Russia did attack from the northwest to start with, but that failed fairly spectacularly
Many people in Ukraine support Russia's invasion. Many more are indifferent and just want to steer clear of the war path; millions with consent were evacuated and placed in safety with shelter and food within Russia. On the other hand, Nazi blocking squads working for the Ukraine puppet government will violently, sometimes lethally stop any able bodied people trying to escape. They violently conscripted the men until they started running out and now have been targetting old men, older children and women (not dissimilar to the OG Nazi late war policy of Volksturm). That is to say, even many of the UKR soldiers don't want to fight against RUS. RUS's target is not the people of UKR, it is their Neo Nazi NATO puppet government.
By contrast, the target of Israel's violence is the Palestinian people themselves, they want genocide and expulsion of all non-Jews and Arabs.
Its not complicated
The Ukraine War is actually the more complicated and nuanced one. So its incredible every time to see people come here and get that backwards.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Thanks for sharing the video, found that quite interesting. Again, I’m not an expert on that topic, but the fact that no one has yet found a working solution gives a hint that at the very least finding a solution for the situation there is complicated. Even if the situation itself wasn‘t.
Well, I'm glad you found the video interesting.
I'll give you a hint as to why no one has "found a working solution" for both conflicts:
In the Ukraine, the US does not allow them to negotiate for peace, despite general agreement and eagerness from the Ukrainian government to compromise over the 5-point Russian proposal (on NATO membership, Donbass, Crimea, security enforcement, and bilingualism). This was confirmed by former German Chancellor Schroeder.
In Palestine, despite reaching several different agreements at different points in time, the settler government of "Israel" continuously broke these resolutions. The US has shielded the zionist government from any repercussions every time.
So yes, the solution is very simple, but it's hard to implement: death to America.
Of course no one can find a solution, Israel demands all Palestinians must die and refuses to compromise on this.
And for some reason, apparently the west is okay with this.
We're talking about the Ukraine-Russia conflict from the Ukrainian government's perspective, right?
Right? :padme:
deleted by creator
First situation sounds a lot more complicated tbh.
Also consider, for the most part Russians and Ukrainians are both Christian or secular. The intercultural "divide" is played up by both governments and the war makes it possible. Now look again at Palestine/Israel.