You can think LGBT people deserve rights and still disagree with arrogant crackers grandstanding about it. I've talked before about the danger of allowing the West to use issues like feminism and LGBT rights as a cover for imperialism for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that it allows reactionaries to paint those basic human rights as part and parcel of Western Imperialism.
These crackers don't give a single fuck about LGBT rights in Qatar, they just want to feel good about themselves regardless of the actual tangible harms their arrogant involvement is doing to the cause of LGBT rights in the Middle East.
Yeah, agreed. There's a time to talk about the West having no place to grandstand or moralize. But the time to do that is not when an arrogant homophobe is gloating for his opportunity to be openly bigoted.
Telling Crackers “no, you can’t do as you please” is cool and good in general.
Really cool seeing so-called communists embrace homophobia to own the libs on hexbear.net, really good way to make sure queer people want to join your movement
If that's going to be your attitude, then why shouldn't a white person who otherwise would be a comrade just say, actually no, fuck this non-white person, they're not inclusive of me or the people I care about so why should I care about them? If telling a white person off because it soothes your damaged ego is more important to you than solidarity with oppressed people then you're just another dumb reactionary. Socialism is either radically inclusive or it will fail every time. There is no national socialism. There is no white socialism. There is no black socialism. There is no straight or cis or trans or gay socialism. So long as there is an out group there will continue to be exploitation. If we aren't all one then we will continue to be nothing.
Qatar has the death penalty for homosexual acts. The last person who was convicted, received a punishment of seven years in jail and seventy lashes with a whip.
We're not alking about George Bush who claims he wants to bring freedom to Afghani women, we're talking about a nobody expressing an opinion. This guy isn't bringing imperialism, he's simply making a correct statement in one of the most reactionary countries in the world.
That can change at the flick of a hat especially with Saudi Arabia’s moves recently.
Qatar and Saudi-Arabia don't have a very good relationship, depsite being similar, slave-labor-reliant absolute monarchies. The Saudi's closed the border with Qatar for a while, leading to significant problems for them.
That being said: Qatar's relationship with the US won't change. It holds the largest US military base in the Middle-East, making it an essential asset for the US army. Which is why your so-called "anti-imperialist" defense of that slave-state is extra ironic.
You started with attacking a random person (not a politician, not someone with power, but a regular tourist) who made a very mild critique of the abhorent treatment of LGBT-people in a slave-state. It looks a lot like obfuscating. For all intends and purpuses, you're defending them.
Second: Since when has the US cared about partnerships between foreign policy enemies?
That's correct in theory, but it won't happen in Qatar, given their vital function in the US imperial machine and their groveling behavior towards US foreign policy.
Nations will be forced to confront their own internal antagonisms regarding production and society and will only progress that way.
I certainly agree with that take, but that doesn't mean we should stop showing solidarity with repressed and exploited people in the Global South. The LGBT-community in a slave state like Qatar is helped by foreign press writing about their situation.
I’m for LGBTQ rights but dude, don’t fucking ally yourself with the CIA of all fucking people.
I'm not allying with the CIA, and I'm pretty sure the tourists wearing rainbow colors aren't either. You're strawmanning.
BTW, it's hard to take your support for LGBT-rights seriously when you start of with the following quote “no, I don’t care about your so-called rights, fuck off.”.
Also they have a giant offshore gas field that is paying for all the bribes and stadiums and whatnot and they will soon be a major LNG supplier for Europe because our governments here aren't allowed to buy Russian gas anymore and will get their pipelines blown up if they don't comply.
This isn't just about rights in Qatar but is being used as a way to raise the rights issue in general, as well as the fact that this shit is still bad in football. Not a single pro in this tournament is out as LGBT because it's career ending to do so.
Problem is that what you're saying is the exact inverse of what Chen is stanning. The qatari claims that being pro LGBT isn't an universal value. Ie, it's ok to be reactionary on LGBT rights if you aren't a westerner, after all LGBT rights is a western thing.
The way I see it western capitalism is simply ahead of the curve when it comes to adopting LGBT rights. Westerners will be able to use them as a cudgel of moral superiority for a while longer yet. It's ironic of course considering the West's role in reifying homophobia during the age of imperialism, but there's no point in begrudging that. Rather, one should support the people fighting for those rights abroad.
No one is imposing values on anybody by wearing a pro LGBT shirt. We are not talking about 'sanctioning Afghanistan and pretending it's about the theocratic regime's anti LGBT tendencies when it's actually geopolitics'. We are talking a tourist in a slave based monarchy that purports itself to be an international tourism destination kicking someone off for wearing a shirt. And a supposed communist standing for all of it.
The real insanity of the situation is that the tourist went to Qatar at all. What is the point of paying Doha's prices just to virtue signal? Everyone should know by now what Qatar and the gulf monarchies stand for. Which doesn't reflect better on Chen or anyone else in any way.
Let me put it this way. If someone claimed that their traditional culture is one of persecution of LGBT people then I wouldn't see this aspect of their way of life as worth preserving. Nothing should change one's mind on this. That doesn't necessarily mean I will personally move against megachurch pastors in my neighborhood. It means at the very least that I won't be approving of them, which is what Chen just did. Joe Redditor seeing this as an opportunity to farm updoots online shouldn't even factor into the equation. There is, again, a massive escalation gap between bombing a country until 'everyone has rights' and being patronizing in media.
The West is patronizing about literally everything from culture to economic policy. That hasn't stopped the rest of the world from chartering their own course, and adopting western positions when it suits them. So merely wearing a shirt shouldn't drive anyone 'on the fence' towards the anti LGBT camp. If it does, then odds are they weren't on the fence at all, which Qatar in general clearly isn't.
There is another discussion that can be had about the ideal that exists within China and pro China spaces about absolute non interventionism. As in, China will do business with everyone. They won't seek remake the world in their image. Whatever sort of society you have will be bolstered by chinese commerce. You can be anything in between the (idealized) extremes of horrifying dictatorship to liberal democracy. Odds are if you pay for an internet kill switch then china will provide it. If you pay for a rail line then china will also provide that service. You see this argued well in a lot of videos by politicians and elites from subsaharan Africa. And even saying all this, I'd argue that the correct position that someone like Chen should adopt is to not comment at all. If Chen Weihua doesn't want to interfere in Qatari affairs he can stay shut. China has it's own internal struggle over LGBT rights, which takes on a local tinge as it's also a conflict over what aspects of 'bourgeois' society they are ready to adopt or suppress. If someone stands with gulf aristocrat social mores in this one issue, then they can't be comrades when it comes to LGBT rights.
Ngl there’s a very fucking easy way for those countries to avoid that moral cudgel being turned into a real cudgel.
Do the right thing and give LGBT people rights. Be Cuba, and create a code about family structure, gender, and sexuality so progressive that you can use it as a shield.
The idea that there are universal values that can be imposed on people who disagree is in itself peak Westoid delusion
This is just the rule of law, which developed independently in what was to become the imperial core and periphery. Every country has (locally) universal values that are imposed even on people who disagree. You could even argue that the modern concept of sovereignty is the western creation here.
Your other points are very good, but I think you can simultaneously say (1) LGBT rights are human rights and (2) the imperial core has zero credibility to advocate for those rights.
You can think LGBT people deserve rights and still disagree with arrogant crackers grandstanding about it. I've talked before about the danger of allowing the West to use issues like feminism and LGBT rights as a cover for imperialism for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that it allows reactionaries to paint those basic human rights as part and parcel of Western Imperialism.
These crackers don't give a single fuck about LGBT rights in Qatar, they just want to feel good about themselves regardless of the actual tangible harms their arrogant involvement is doing to the cause of LGBT rights in the Middle East.
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Yeah, agreed. There's a time to talk about the West having no place to grandstand or moralize. But the time to do that is not when an arrogant homophobe is gloating for his opportunity to be openly bigoted.
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Apparently the Nazis sending gay people to death camps would have been based if only they hadn't been white
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Free speech to say what?
Really cool seeing so-called communists embrace homophobia to own the libs on hexbear.net, really good way to make sure queer people want to join your movement
If that's going to be your attitude, then why shouldn't a white person who otherwise would be a comrade just say, actually no, fuck this non-white person, they're not inclusive of me or the people I care about so why should I care about them? If telling a white person off because it soothes your damaged ego is more important to you than solidarity with oppressed people then you're just another dumb reactionary. Socialism is either radically inclusive or it will fail every time. There is no national socialism. There is no white socialism. There is no black socialism. There is no straight or cis or trans or gay socialism. So long as there is an out group there will continue to be exploitation. If we aren't all one then we will continue to be nothing.
Found Paul Cockshot's hexbear-account.
Qatar has the death penalty for homosexual acts. The last person who was convicted, received a punishment of seven years in jail and seventy lashes with a whip.
We're not alking about George Bush who claims he wants to bring freedom to Afghani women, we're talking about a nobody expressing an opinion. This guy isn't bringing imperialism, he's simply making a correct statement in one of the most reactionary countries in the world.
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You think Qatar is at risk of a humanitarian intervention? Of all places Qatar? " Major non-NATO-ally" Qatar?
Come on.
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Qatar and Saudi-Arabia don't have a very good relationship, depsite being similar, slave-labor-reliant absolute monarchies. The Saudi's closed the border with Qatar for a while, leading to significant problems for them.
That being said: Qatar's relationship with the US won't change. It holds the largest US military base in the Middle-East, making it an essential asset for the US army. Which is why your so-called "anti-imperialist" defense of that slave-state is extra ironic.
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You started with attacking a random person (not a politician, not someone with power, but a regular tourist) who made a very mild critique of the abhorent treatment of LGBT-people in a slave-state. It looks a lot like obfuscating. For all intends and purpuses, you're defending them.
That's correct in theory, but it won't happen in Qatar, given their vital function in the US imperial machine and their groveling behavior towards US foreign policy.
I certainly agree with that take, but that doesn't mean we should stop showing solidarity with repressed and exploited people in the Global South. The LGBT-community in a slave state like Qatar is helped by foreign press writing about their situation.
I'm not allying with the CIA, and I'm pretty sure the tourists wearing rainbow colors aren't either. You're strawmanning.
BTW, it's hard to take your support for LGBT-rights seriously when you start of with the following quote “no, I don’t care about your so-called rights, fuck off.”.
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Didn't realise that. That's also why I said it was a "defense" of Qatar. Apologies.
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I do stand by the fact that I think it's incorrect to invoke the "don't ally with the CIA"-argument in this context.
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No, they’re a close US ally and have the largest US military base in the Middle East.
Also they have a giant offshore gas field that is paying for all the bribes and stadiums and whatnot and they will soon be a major LNG supplier for Europe because our governments here aren't allowed to buy Russian gas anymore and will get their pipelines blown up if they don't comply.
Yep. They’re basically Saudi Arabia 2
qatar should be invaded by china or something
This isn't just about rights in Qatar but is being used as a way to raise the rights issue in general, as well as the fact that this shit is still bad in football. Not a single pro in this tournament is out as LGBT because it's career ending to do so.
Problem is that what you're saying is the exact inverse of what Chen is stanning. The qatari claims that being pro LGBT isn't an universal value. Ie, it's ok to be reactionary on LGBT rights if you aren't a westerner, after all LGBT rights is a western thing.
The way I see it western capitalism is simply ahead of the curve when it comes to adopting LGBT rights. Westerners will be able to use them as a cudgel of moral superiority for a while longer yet. It's ironic of course considering the West's role in reifying homophobia during the age of imperialism, but there's no point in begrudging that. Rather, one should support the people fighting for those rights abroad.
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Communism is based on universal values like compassion and cooperation.
:stalin-approval:
No one is imposing values on anybody by wearing a pro LGBT shirt. We are not talking about 'sanctioning Afghanistan and pretending it's about the theocratic regime's anti LGBT tendencies when it's actually geopolitics'. We are talking a tourist in a slave based monarchy that purports itself to be an international tourism destination kicking someone off for wearing a shirt. And a supposed communist standing for all of it.
The real insanity of the situation is that the tourist went to Qatar at all. What is the point of paying Doha's prices just to virtue signal? Everyone should know by now what Qatar and the gulf monarchies stand for. Which doesn't reflect better on Chen or anyone else in any way.
Let me put it this way. If someone claimed that their traditional culture is one of persecution of LGBT people then I wouldn't see this aspect of their way of life as worth preserving. Nothing should change one's mind on this. That doesn't necessarily mean I will personally move against megachurch pastors in my neighborhood. It means at the very least that I won't be approving of them, which is what Chen just did. Joe Redditor seeing this as an opportunity to farm updoots online shouldn't even factor into the equation. There is, again, a massive escalation gap between bombing a country until 'everyone has rights' and being patronizing in media.
The West is patronizing about literally everything from culture to economic policy. That hasn't stopped the rest of the world from chartering their own course, and adopting western positions when it suits them. So merely wearing a shirt shouldn't drive anyone 'on the fence' towards the anti LGBT camp. If it does, then odds are they weren't on the fence at all, which Qatar in general clearly isn't.
There is another discussion that can be had about the ideal that exists within China and pro China spaces about absolute non interventionism. As in, China will do business with everyone. They won't seek remake the world in their image. Whatever sort of society you have will be bolstered by chinese commerce. You can be anything in between the (idealized) extremes of horrifying dictatorship to liberal democracy. Odds are if you pay for an internet kill switch then china will provide it. If you pay for a rail line then china will also provide that service. You see this argued well in a lot of videos by politicians and elites from subsaharan Africa. And even saying all this, I'd argue that the correct position that someone like Chen should adopt is to not comment at all. If Chen Weihua doesn't want to interfere in Qatari affairs he can stay shut. China has it's own internal struggle over LGBT rights, which takes on a local tinge as it's also a conflict over what aspects of 'bourgeois' society they are ready to adopt or suppress. If someone stands with gulf aristocrat social mores in this one issue, then they can't be comrades when it comes to LGBT rights.
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Ngl there’s a very fucking easy way for those countries to avoid that moral cudgel being turned into a real cudgel.
Do the right thing and give LGBT people rights. Be Cuba, and create a code about family structure, gender, and sexuality so progressive that you can use it as a shield.
This is just the rule of law, which developed independently in what was to become the imperial core and periphery. Every country has (locally) universal values that are imposed even on people who disagree. You could even argue that the modern concept of sovereignty is the western creation here.
Your other points are very good, but I think you can simultaneously say (1) LGBT rights are human rights and (2) the imperial core has zero credibility to advocate for those rights.
:wtf-am-i-reading: