I figured that was most of this forum. Even the people who are clearly minority comrades say this to me basically " all forms of oppression must be fought back against, now, but class is the primary mode of oppression"
I figured that was most of this forum. Even the people who are clearly minority comrades say this to me basically " all forms of oppression must be fought back against, now, but class is the primary mode of oppression"
If you don't put class first I think you're a rad lib no matter what you tell me.
Not putting class first is literally how you get this killer Mike landlord black capitalism shit. Yass kweening raytheon's first female CEO, etc.
Don't @ me with a bunch of words I don't care if class isn't the center of your framing you're the same as some half nazi petty bourg fuckkl to me
The issue is that “class first” has a super broad meaning. There are people who say “class first” to mean that bourgeoisie identity politics are not liberation (ie Raytheon’s first female CEO). And there are people who say “class first” as a pretense to tell the uppity minorities to fuck off and stop “splitting the movement” over their issues.
The second isn't putting class first, ironically.
This is the things that bugs me the most about class reduction as an idea. It is so specifically used against libs that It feels like a psyop to me.
It should be used against libs because they will confront everything except the class commonality. The problem is that libs refuse to understand the concept and some more socially reactionary leftists fo as well.
Yea I mean im not advocating stupidpol like abandonment of other issues for sure
I figured as much. When I’m around libs I’ll push the class issue and just risk getting called a class reductionist if they’ve got intense brainworms. When I’m around comrades, I feel like the nuances and pitfalls are worth pointing out for lurkers. But I absolutely agree with you that someone celebrating the bourgeois-ification of a minority group is super sus radlib shit
A fair perspective so long as you recognize that all fighting all forms of oppression is still important.
That is what class first means. Fighting for healthcare helps every marginalized person at the same time for example. So by opposing a bourgeoisie interest you are doing the work of uniting thr workers of the world and all that.
Right, but I still think fighting racism and fascism head on is something that's good praxis as well.
How do you mean to fight ideas? Write a play? Or do you mean things like universal school lunches which help all workers? If it is actually worth doing it is a little more than just fighting rascism. Look at the Irish, Italians, and jews. They are white now. Allmost all the rascism is gone against them. Has it helped much?
Yeah Im not sure we are going to come to come to an agreement if you don't believe in organizing against things like Unite the right when they happen.
This is edging close to stupidpol territory.
If the chuds are having a cook out and we are just going to yell at them, that's fun sure, but that isn't praxis especially if it comes at the cost of organizing for things that do make material difference. For sure I don't want comrades to get arrested to just emotionally validate chuds. Adventureism like :nazi-punching: is not a reliable tactic despite it having worked. What do you picture doing that I wouldn't be down for?
Im just going to say that i agree with black bloc antifa tactics and making sure Fascists know they aren't welcome whenever they appear and try to demonstrate. That's not the entirety of what I want to do, but in this current era of rising reactionary thought I think it's pretty damn important.
I used to have the whole stupid pol mindset myself, as I'm a cis het white dude of the suburbs and was insulsted from a lot of discrimination myself. Over time I had people from different walks of life kind of enter my circle and family and I wasn't so insulated anymore.
Yeah, class is the most important over arching aspect, but again I still think things like anti-fascist action are very important both in principle and for the sake of praxis.
I tend to also align more with anarchism or libertarian socialism than Marxism due to the above.
I guess that's the next I can explain myself, sorry if it's a wall of text
I mean, I think we basically agree on everything. Just minor questions of doctrinal efficiency