so when Victoria Nuland picked Ukraine's new government after instigating a coup and they killed ~16,000 civilians people in Donbas between 2014 and 2022 those were friendly, non-aggressive artillery shells?
I think it was in the OSCE special monitoring mission reports, I'll update if I can find
EDIT: well, might be vegan egg substitute on my face on this one. the OSCE numbers I can find so far for a 3 year period (2017-2020) are in line but only if it inlcudes all casualties not just civilians
Is there any specific proof of the part where Russia entered after Ukraine bombed??
I personally don't see it as necessary, and think an analysis of which forces/interests were pushing towards the war is more important than "who fired the first bullet" anyways. That's always seemed like a dumb way of arguing anyways, because of how often it's actually "he punched me first (after I held this knife right next to his throat for years)." But libs do all the time so it'd be good to be able to disprove not only on my terms but theirs
You can always tell who the most ignorant libs are when they bring up Crimea lmao
Crimea is not Ukrainian, it has always been a distinct cultural ethnic region and 97% of Crimeans voting for independence from Kiev should give you pause before you breathlessly insist they should remain beholden to a bunch of nazi banderites
"Acktually sweaty, don't you know that if a vote has a higher than 80% yes vote, it's automatically a sham? Every vote needs to be really close or else it doesn't count and isn't real democracy. Consensus isn't democratic!"
the Russian federation is a reactionary bourgeois state that is a hollowed out shell of its former USSR self, but I dislike the hyperbole that it is "the Russian Empire". Russia Today is neither the Russian empire, nor the Soviet Union. If anything it is closer politically to what it would have been if the February revolution had continued and the October revolution never happened: A bourgeois state.
Oh, I've been following the whole thing for years and know who she is.
I just don't think that her supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform in Ukraine equates to it being okay for Russia to annex part of a neighbouring country.
Pro-democracy is when you ban left opposition but not fascists. Anti-corruption is when you have offshore accounts connected to the oligarch who funded said fascists that you used to work for on his TV program
The Pandora Papers revealed that Zelensky and his inner circle had offshore accounts connected to Kolomoisky. Kolomoisky is an oligarch that owned the TV station Zelensky worked for prior. He also funded nazi militias that couped the government in 2014
democracy is when you elect zelensky on a platform of peace with russia but he lets the Right Sector and Azov continue to try the ethnic cleansing of eastern ukraine
Assuming that it was even legitimate to begin with, which is a big if, a popular vote doesn't automatically legitimize relinquishing territory to a foreign nation.
Assuming that it was even legitimate to begin with
"Democracy is when the stupid foreigners vote how I think they should, otherwise it's not legitimate"
doesn't automatically legitimize relinquishing territory to a foreign nation.
If the people vote overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine, then that shows that Crimea isn't Ukraine's to relinquish or not. Liberals and abandoning democracy as soon as it becomes a rhetorical inconvenience for them, name a more iconic duo.
A complicated situation certainly, but whatever the answer is, it is not "collude with a neighbouring foreign nation, allow them to invade, and provoke a military conflict."
So you don't have an answer, but "a vote followed by annexation" is unacceptable for some reason? Why reject a peaceful solution that results in people having the government they want to live under?
I know borders are sacred and inviolable, but Ukraine and Russia were part of the same country until fairly recently. It's not weird that large populations of people would rather not be living under the rule of Ukrainian nationalists and decided to make some adjustments.
so when Victoria Nuland picked Ukraine's new government after instigating a coup and they killed ~16,000
civilianspeople in Donbas between 2014 and 2022 those were friendly, non-aggressive artillery shells?where is this number from? the 10k+ numbers i've seen for the war all include military dead as well
I think it was in the OSCE special monitoring mission reports, I'll update if I can find
EDIT: well, might be vegan egg substitute on my face on this one. the OSCE numbers I can find so far for a 3 year period (2017-2020) are in line but only if it inlcudes all casualties not just civilians
you are probably right. I've crossed it out and will adjust my posting
So you're saying that Russia didn't invade Ukraine first, before the separatist-controlled areas were shelled?
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Is there any specific proof of the part where Russia entered after Ukraine bombed??
I personally don't see it as necessary, and think an analysis of which forces/interests were pushing towards the war is more important than "who fired the first bullet" anyways. That's always seemed like a dumb way of arguing anyways, because of how often it's actually "he punched me first (after I held this knife right next to his throat for years)." But libs do all the time so it'd be good to be able to disprove not only on my terms but theirs
2014 is before 2022 hope that helps
Oh, so you're saying that Russia illegally annexing Crimea in 2014 wasn't an invasion of Ukraine?
You can always tell who the most ignorant libs are when they bring up Crimea lmao
Crimea is not Ukrainian, it has always been a distinct cultural ethnic region and 97% of Crimeans voting for independence from Kiev should give you pause before you breathlessly insist they should remain beholden to a bunch of nazi banderites
"Acktually sweaty, don't you know that if a vote has a higher than 80% yes vote, it's automatically a sham? Every vote needs to be really close or else it doesn't count and isn't real democracy. Consensus isn't democratic!"
"Except for the Falklands, since it still counts when we do it"
Crimeans wanting independence means they wanted to become part of the Russian empire again?
the Russian federation is a reactionary bourgeois state that is a hollowed out shell of its former USSR self, but I dislike the hyperbole that it is "the Russian Empire". Russia Today is neither the Russian empire, nor the Soviet Union. If anything it is closer politically to what it would have been if the February revolution had continued and the October revolution never happened: A bourgeois state.
Yes you dumb fuck, as a means of protection from the nazi captured Ukrainian army who would've otherwise bulldozed the small region
making it pretty obvious here that you have no idea who Victoria Nuland is and only started paying attention to any of this stuff in 2022
Oh, I've been following the whole thing for years and know who she is.
I just don't think that her supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform in Ukraine equates to it being okay for Russia to annex part of a neighbouring country.
Democracy is when you replace an elected leader with a pro-western one.
Liberal Democracy is all about giving Americans the right to vote in your countries elections.
democracy is when you pick the new officials yourself on a phone call with Geoffrey Pyatt
Pro-democracy is when you ban left opposition but not fascists. Anti-corruption is when you have offshore accounts connected to the oligarch who funded said fascists that you used to work for on his TV program
What are you referencing with the last part?
The Pandora Papers revealed that Zelensky and his inner circle had offshore accounts connected to Kolomoisky. Kolomoisky is an oligarch that owned the TV station Zelensky worked for prior. He also funded nazi militias that couped the government in 2014
[laughs in Operation Aerodynamic]
Oh wow, really? A cold-war era campaign? You're really pushing Putin's talking points here.
history started in 2022
Inb4 muh little green men
Lmao I refuse to believe you've ever heard or read about Vladmir Putin discussing that
democracy is when you elect zelensky on a platform of peace with russia but he lets the Right Sector and Azov continue to try the ethnic cleansing of eastern ukraine
Can you find Ukraine on a blank political map?
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Is this a joke? Pro democracy? Anti corruption? When has the US ever stood for that outside of propaganda purposes?
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Assuming that it was even legitimate to begin with, which is a big if, a popular vote doesn't automatically legitimize relinquishing territory to a foreign nation.
"Democracy is when the stupid foreigners vote how I think they should, otherwise it's not legitimate"
If the people vote overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine, then that shows that Crimea isn't Ukraine's to relinquish or not. Liberals and abandoning democracy as soon as it becomes a rhetorical inconvenience for them, name a more iconic duo.
Oh look another imperialist
TFW when being pro-Russia with regards to the Ukraine conflict is also being imperialist 🤡
recognizing the geopolitical reality of the situation is not being pro-Russia 🤡
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When they break out the smug clown emoji, we reply with superior emojis
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Good idea right there
Good you acknowledge that even the westoid cope for the Euromaidan coup is bullshit.
If your aim is to prevent war, what is your solution for when the vast majority of people in one country want to join another, and vote accordingly?
A complicated situation certainly, but whatever the answer is, it is not "collude with a neighbouring foreign nation, allow them to invade, and provoke a military conflict."
Justliberalthings.jpg
So you don't have an answer, but "a vote followed by annexation" is unacceptable for some reason? Why reject a peaceful solution that results in people having the government they want to live under?
Apparently it's "collude with local fascists and US MIC and allow them to provoke a military conflict and wage a proxy war with Russia"
Pretty extreme answer for a situation you consider to be "complicated"
we agree taiwan isn't a country then
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sounds like someone hasn't asked my friends in the Taiwanese Liberation Subreddit what their opinions are!
Hence why I had to shell civilians
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Oh, so you're saying the Ukrainian government wasn't couped by nazis in 2014?
I know borders are sacred and inviolable, but Ukraine and Russia were part of the same country until fairly recently. It's not weird that large populations of people would rather not be living under the rule of Ukrainian nationalists and decided to make some adjustments.